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Old 01-06-2008, 07:13 PM   #141
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It's similar in Germany. Most of the coverage is how Obama and Clinton are competing, and then there is every now and then a run-down on the Republicans, basically just Guiliani, because people still remember him, and then the leading candidates, so far Romney and Huckabee. So far, there was only little coverage of McCain, and the other candidates hardly got ever mentioned, except Thompson, because he is an actor, and Tancredo when he made his stupid nuke-statement or whatever crap he talked about.

I think, those who care about the US elections know that there is the primaries currently going on, and the actual Presidential vote still to come, and those who don't know about usually don't care either.
Often, you'll find a small box in reports or articles about the Primaries explaining the US election process in short, but I'm sure some still think it's already election time.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:24 PM   #142
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I trust one pollster and he is currently calling it a tie between Obama and Clinton. Dead Heat.

When his current analysis comes out tomorrow, I will weigh in, but I have to scratch my head when he is projecting a tie and everyone else is projecting a 10% Obama lead.
Ya, polls are polls, but regardless, Obama is experiencing a huge "bump" after Iowa regardless of the exact percentage!
Something really special is going on right now, he is on a roll, it's in the air... I can feel it!!
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:29 PM   #143
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Originally posted by Jeannieco


Ya, polls are polls, but regardless, Obama is experiencing a huge "bump" after Iowa regardless of the exact percentage!
Something really special is going on right now, he is on a roll, it's in the air... I can feel it!!
Yeah, there's definitely an excitement around him and his camp that nobody else has. I keep reading and hearing (even personal stories from people I know) of so many Republicans even supporting the guy. I think it's because he's new, different and has a fresh view on things.

One of the best quotes I've heard on it was the final one in an article in the Kansas City Star. A professor (I think from Drake University in Iowa) said "Clinton is running against Republicans, Edwards is running against corporate America and Obama is running against politics itself."

Gave me goosebumps.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:35 PM   #144
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Originally posted by Jeannieco
She IS center right ( I call her BUSH light) here in the Northwest part of the states. The NW is very BLUE (Liberal leaning)
and that is exactly why I am not voting for her. Besides she is a sell out and corporate all the way ect, ect...
To someone such as myself - and I'm sure other Kiwis and Aussies share this perspective - the US lacks a viable left wing, progressive option. The Republicans are obviously right wing, tending to the extreme far right, and the Democrats are centre leaning right. I like Kucinich so much because he actually seems to be on the left.

But then I'm a social democrat, and I'm one of the people in the last Aussie federal election who helped the Greens have their best performance yet (they now have five Senate seats).
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:43 PM   #145
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The vast majority were including the three leading Democratic Candidates. There were several spending bills presented with the stipulation of withdrawing all US combat troops by March 31, 2008 and the vast majority of Democrats supported it.
You're arguing that the Democrats were 'completely ineffective', but you're digging your own hole. The vast majority of Democrats supported those spending bills just as you say they did, and they wanted the deadline to withdraw the troops, just as they said they did as soon as they were elected, and the reason these bills were 'completely ineffective' was because none of them ever became reality. Bush vetoed all of them and the Democrats never had a big enough majority to to override any of those vetoes. If they did, the deadline would've been set. It is entirely George W. Bush's fault/responsibility/whatever that the Democrats have been 'completely ineffective' in accomplishing what they said they wanted to. You can't get things done in Congress when the President keeps standing in your way.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:50 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


Yeah, there's definitely an excitement around him and his camp that nobody else has. I keep reading and hearing (even personal stories from people I know) of so many Republicans even supporting the guy. I think it's because he's new, different and has a fresh view on things.

One of the best quotes I've heard on it was the final one in an article in the Kansas City Star. A professor (I think from Drake University in Iowa) said "Clinton is running against Republicans, Edwards is running against corporate America and Obama is running against politics itself."

Gave me goosebumps.
Oh wow, that is a GREAT quote! Exactly why he appeals to EVERYONE! Love it!
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:54 PM   #147
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Originally posted by namkcuR


You can't get things done in Congress when the President keeps standing in your way.
In Sting's world this is "crushing" an entire party.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:57 PM   #148
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


In Sting's world this is "crushing" an entire party.
Strongbow is Sting? Wow, I had no idea.
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:06 PM   #149
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl


I'm all for how Obama could change the appearance of the US to the global community, which is no small feat at this point and can't be underestimated.

However, I find him disingenuous on a several issues. He presents his health care plan as being universal when as I understand it, it stops short of being universal. It does not guarantee health care for every American. I know it's been talked about to death, and no plan is perfect, but I think a lot of people are still under the impression that he's offering universal healthcare. He is also touting how anti-war he's been when in fact after voting against the war, which was great, he then voted to continue funding the war at every opportunity. And his connections to corporate lobbyists is certainly not The Change I'm looking for (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...ith_lobbyists/). So yeah, I find him a bit smarmy. But they all are in some way or another, and at least they're all lightyears ahead of Bush in intelligence and competence. I'll support Edwards in the NM primary unless something dramatic happens to change my mind, and an Obama/Edwards ticket would be something I could get a little excited about. But I certainly haven't gulped up the Obama Kool-Aid.
Not everyone who supports Obama is being swept away by the fervor. I've been an admirer of his since well before he was a candidate, and believe me, if anything, I've been more disappointed in him, not less since he started campaigning. I'm trusting that he's still the same guy that I read about back in 2006, but I also realize he's human and as likely to fall victim to the usual political temptations that most people do. I didn't like a number of things he's done/said since he declared his candidacy but on the whole I still think he could provide the fresh leadership, and yes, change, that this country needs.

I don't much care for Kool-Aid.
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:09 PM   #150
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And I'd also add that Obama has done a lot to re-energize the electorate about the possiblities of what this country can do, especially among younger people. That is so important! Because when we become cynical and figure there's nothing we can do any way, then only the fringe types and moneyed lobbyists are active and we give up the reigns of the government that is supposedly ours.

Obama gives people a sense that they can still make a difference, that what they do does actually matter.
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:13 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR


Strongbow is Sting? Wow, I had no idea.
Isn't it obvious? His posting style is so distinctive as are his stances (I don't think I've ever met anyone else who will tell you with a straight face that we "actually" won in Vietnam). I'm usually terrible with alters but even I picked that one up pretty quickly.
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:31 PM   #152
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Well he admitted it's him, he had an issue signing in as Sting so started a new one, I don't think he as trying to fool anyone with an alter.
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:34 PM   #153
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Well he admitted it's him, he had an issue signing in as Sting so started a new one, I don't think he as trying to fool anyone with an alter.
Well, even if he was, he couldn't have fooled me.
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:34 PM   #154
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Originally posted by maycocksean
And I'd also add that Obama has done a lot to re-energize the electorate about the possiblities of what this country can do, especially among younger people. That is so important! Because when we become cynical and figure there's nothing we can do any way, then only the fringe types and moneyed lobbyists are active and we give up the reigns of the government that is supposedly ours.

Obama gives people a sense that they can still make a difference, that what they do does actually matter.
That is exactly right. No candidate is going to be exactly the way we want them to be, but he gives us a feeling that it's not about him... it's about US! And he is right!!

As far as joyfulgirl posting that she didn't like the fact that he voted to fund the war at every turn.. well that is NOT true. He spoke out AGAINST it to begin with and....he voted against funding the war and guess who was waiting in the wings to see which way he would vote at the last minute? Hillary. She didn't vote until he did and voted the same way AGAINST the funding so that they couldn't hold that over her head.

Here is the blurb from the Washington Post:

5/24/07 Vote 181: SENATOR OBAMA VOTE: NO

On the Motion: This $120 billion dollar package was passed in the Senate by an 80-14 vote on May 24. The bill primarily focuses on funding for the Iraq war but also addresses other unrelated topics.
A previous war funding bill was vetoed by the president because it included troop withdrawal deadlines, which were largely supported by anti-war Democrats.

Ten Democrats opposed this new bill with no withdrawal deadlines, while 37 supported its passage. Congress had to act to replace war funding that would have ended May 28.

According to the Washington Post, this bill includes 18 “benchmarks that the Iraqi government must meet to continue receiving reconstruction aid.” One hundred billion dollars in funding is slated to support continuing military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The bill says that the President and Congress must not take any action that will endanger the troops and that they provide any funds necessary for training, equipment and other types of support to ensure their safety and the effectiveness of their missions. The president is required to give a first report on the Iraqis' progress in meeting the benchmarks to Congress on July 15.

Seventeen billion dollars in the package is for domestic spending. Out of this funding, $6.4 billion is for Gulf Coast hurricane relief efforts, $3 billion in emergency aid for farmers, $1 billion to upgrade port and mass transit security, $3 billion towards converting closing U.S. military bases to other uses, and $650 million to increase funding for children’s health care. A Congressional Research Service summary states that the “other domestic beneficiaries include state HIV grant programs, mine safety research, youth violence prevention activities, and pandemic flu protection.”

Sens. Barack Obama (Ill.) and Hilary Clinton (N.Y.) were among the 14 who opposed the bill.
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:41 PM   #155
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Originally posted by Jeannieco


That is exactly right. No candidate is going to be exactly the way we want them to be, but he gives us a feeling that it's not about him... it's about US! And he is right!!

As far as joyfulgirl posting that she didn't like the fact that he voted to fund the war at every turn.. well that is NOT true. He spoke out AGAINST it to begin with and....he voted against funding the war and guess who was waiting in the wings to see which way he would vote at the last minute? Hillary. She didn't vote until he did and voted the same way AGAINST the funding so that they couldn't hold that over her head.

Here is the blurb from the Washington Post:

5/24/07 Vote 181: SENATOR OBAMA VOTE: NO

On the Motion: This $120 billion dollar package was passed in the Senate by an 80-14 vote on May 24. The bill primarily focuses on funding for the Iraq war but also addresses other unrelated topics.
A previous war funding bill was vetoed by the president because it included troop withdrawal deadlines, which were largely supported by anti-war Democrats.

Ten Democrats opposed this new bill with no withdrawal deadlines, while 37 supported its passage. Congress had to act to replace war funding that would have ended May 28.

According to the Washington Post, this bill includes 18 “benchmarks that the Iraqi government must meet to continue receiving reconstruction aid.” One hundred billion dollars in funding is slated to support continuing military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The bill says that the President and Congress must not take any action that will endanger the troops and that they provide any funds necessary for training, equipment and other types of support to ensure their safety and the effectiveness of their missions. The president is required to give a first report on the Iraqis' progress in meeting the benchmarks to Congress on July 15.

Seventeen billion dollars in the package is for domestic spending. Out of this funding, $6.4 billion is for Gulf Coast hurricane relief efforts, $3 billion in emergency aid for farmers, $1 billion to upgrade port and mass transit security, $3 billion towards converting closing U.S. military bases to other uses, and $650 million to increase funding for children’s health care. A Congressional Research Service summary states that the “other domestic beneficiaries include state HIV grant programs, mine safety research, youth violence prevention activities, and pandemic flu protection.”

Sens. Barack Obama (Ill.) and Hilary Clinton (N.Y.) were among the 14 who opposed the bill.
The irony is that this vote will be used against him in the campaign at some point (probably by the Republicans if it should come to that).

In a way, I think it's to Obama's benefit that he is so inspiring because his actual stances are often very nuanced and nuance doesn't sell well on TV (just ask John Kerry, he who famously--and I think unjustly--was known for voting against the war before he voted for it). If you can't sell overly simplistic ideas and solutions on TV because you recognize the world is too complicated for that, then you better have something else to sell on TV. Fortunately, Obama does.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:18 AM   #156
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I hope you are simply talking about your military, and the power the threat of it's use wields, because if you are talking socially/politically, I'm sorry to break it to you and don't want to sound rude, but....
Well I hate to break it to you that the United States impact on the rest of the world goes well beyond simply its military power for well over 60 years now.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:21 AM   #157
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You're arguing that the Democrats were 'completely ineffective', but you're digging your own hole. The vast majority of Democrats supported those spending bills just as you say they did, and they wanted the deadline to withdraw the troops, just as they said they did as soon as they were elected, and the reason these bills were 'completely ineffective' was because none of them ever became reality. Bush vetoed all of them and the Democrats never had a big enough majority to to override any of those vetoes. If they did, the deadline would've been set. It is entirely George W. Bush's fault/responsibility/whatever that the Democrats have been 'completely ineffective' in accomplishing what they said they wanted to. You can't get things done in Congress when the President keeps standing in your way.
The Democrats failed to do what they said they would be able to. A presidents veto is not the end of any bill provided you can muster the support to override the veto and the Democrats could not. Say what you will about the Presidents approval rating, the Democratic congress's are even lower.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:21 AM   #158
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“You campaign in poetry, but you govern in prose,” Mrs. Clinton said

But of course it is Obama's poetry that has me switching to him from Kucinich. And as my friends have shown me in the last three days, there are all the things I disagree with Obama on, and even prefer Edwards, Richardson, and Ron Raul on, not to mention my beloved Dennis. On positions, Obama is too centrist for me, but as person, he is too perfect for me, at least too real to be real, if you know what I mean.

And that's okay, because you win my heart in poetry, not in prose. (which is why I am even a regular on a U2 board).

Obama has this 'thing' I cannot shake, and I think he can win, which is scary and beautiful.

NH is huge.

Barack on,
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:25 AM   #159
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“You campaign in poetry, but you govern in prose,” Mrs. Clinton said

Fair point, Senator Clinton. But the message should still be the same whether in poetry or prose.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:27 AM   #160
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The Democrats failed to do what they said they would be able to. A presidents veto is not the end of any bill provided you can muster the support to override the veto and the Democrats could not. Say what you will about the Presidents approval rating, the Democratic congress's are even lower.
Yes, that's right. Shift the blame onto congress. Nevermind that the majority of American's continue to think the War in Iraq was a bad idea and disapprove of Bush's management of it. Nevermind that the 2006 elections were a clear referendum that the American people were unhappy with the Bush administration. Nope, it's the Democrats fault that they didn't have a large enough majority to override Bush's veto. It's the democratic congress's approval rating that is really the issue here.

Yes. Tell me, do you carry around a 2 liter jug of koolaid or have you moved on to the IV yet?
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