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Old 03-14-2004, 06:48 PM   #81
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Sting,
I don't think it's fair to describe a government which opposed the war on Iraq as supporting the "appeasment" of terrorists. Many people who opposed the war did so because they did not believe there was any connection between Saddam Hussein's regime and al-Qaeda, and therefore invading Iraq was not the best way of fighting al-Qaeda. They didn't believe in "appeasing" al-Qaeda, they believed that there was no reason to go into Iraq and cause the devastation which we have seen there when there was no proof that it would do anything to aid the fight against terrorism.
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Old 03-14-2004, 06:50 PM   #82
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Dread,
I know you don't want to de-rail this thread (maybe we can start a new one if people are interested in discussing this?) but I just wanted to ask you: to what extent do you think al-Qaeda are interested in influencing the outcome of domestic elections in the West?
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Old 03-14-2004, 09:05 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Sting,
I don't think it's fair to describe a government which opposed the war on Iraq as supporting the "appeasment" of terrorists. Many people who opposed the war did so because they did not believe there was any connection between Saddam Hussein's regime and al-Qaeda, and therefore invading Iraq was not the best way of fighting al-Qaeda. They didn't believe in "appeasing" al-Qaeda, they believed that there was no reason to go into Iraq and cause the devastation which we have seen there when there was no proof that it would do anything to aid the fight against terrorism.

I think it is fair and accurate to describe the vote for this Socialist government as an attempt to appease terrorist. The Perception by many people in Spain is that if they were not involved in the removal and disarmament of Saddam, the terrorist attack would not of happened. It was a surprise that the PP was defeated and no doubt, the terrorist actions produced this outcome.

The security problems presented by Saddam's refusal to Verifiably disarm of all WMD were the chief reasons why members of the international community finally used military force to enforce UN resolutions after having tried other means to bring about enforcement for 12 YEARS without success.

Saddam indeed had connections to some types of terrorism although it is has yet to be confirmed that there were any strong links with Al Quada. But this is not relevant to the security concerns of the UN that involved Saddam's failure to Verifiably disarm of all WMD following his invasion of Kuwait and then defeat in the 1991 Gulf War. Saddam never complied with any of the 17 UN resolutions passed against him under Chapter VII rules of the UN allowing for the use of military force as a means of enforcement.
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Old 03-15-2004, 04:11 AM   #84
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Did Saddam run as president candidate in Spain ?


Anyway,..just on the radio. The new President of Spain just decided to pull back the troops out off Iraq. Zapatero said, i do not bow to the terror but we were always against the Iraq war.

So Iraq people, they will leave you alone after they made your country a paradise for terrorists.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:35 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I think it is fair and accurate to describe the vote for this Socialist government as an attempt to appease terrorist.
That's not what you said in your original post though: you said that the Socialist party supported appeasment, not that people voted for them in order to appease terrorists. They're two separate allegations.

I have no intention of derailing this thread with yet another debate about UN resolutions, but as you're well aware, I think it's ridiculous to claim the UN backed this war when you consider that the pro-war countries refused to even have a vote on the subject because they knew they would be defeated. There is so much more I want to say on that subject, but this is a thread about Madrid and the Spanish elections, so I'm not going to say it.
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Old 03-15-2004, 07:57 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I think it is fair and accurate to describe the vote for this Socialist government as an attempt to appease terrorist.
So by reversing this analogy this would mean that a vote for Bush in the November elections is an attempt at war-mongering and murder.

Great way to describe election outcomes...

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Old 03-15-2004, 11:03 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
It was a surprise that the PP was defeated and no doubt, the terrorist actions produced this outcome.
The PP itself is partially to blame for the outcome of this election. Many people think the PP kept on claiming it was ETA to further their election campaign. They simply don't trust the PP anymore.
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Old 03-15-2004, 11:09 AM   #88
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I agree with DrTeeth. Lots of people in Spain are furious at how the PP attempted to cover up evidence that al-Qaeda were behind the attacks, knowing that it could influence the outcome of the election. To play politics with something like this is unforgivable and many people voted against them because of this.
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Old 03-15-2004, 12:10 PM   #89
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I agree with Dr. Teeth and Fizz. People were angered at the PP's handling of the bombing and thought they were playing politics. A demonstration against the government over this was held Saturday, attracting thousands of people. I think the last damn thing the Spanish voters intended to do was to appease terrorists.
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Old 03-15-2004, 02:53 PM   #90
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Fizz- agree with your> opposing the war on Iraq- does not always = apppeasing terrorists. Contrary to what Team Bush, Limbaugh & Ann Coultair sez.

near noon {us east coast time} I heard on our Public Radio station a comment that sais, sometimes Al Queda will use someone else's terror attack to their advtange. So it seems, I guess, the Madrid attack is still up in the air, as to who perpetrated it.

I didn't even watch the TV News footage. The photos & articles in Sat & Sun's papers made me cry as it was.
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Old 03-15-2004, 04:10 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


I think it is fair and accurate to describe the vote for this Socialist government as an attempt to appease terrorist. The Perception by many people in Spain is that if they were not involved in the removal and disarmament of Saddam, the terrorist attack would not of happened. It was a surprise that the PP was defeated and no doubt, the terrorist actions produced this outcome.
The vote is NOT an attempt to appease the terrorists, to suggest so insults the people of Spain who have democratically elected a party that reflects and reflected their desire NOT to participate in the war against Iraq which they felt was unjust.

Sting2, this is not a question of IF it was right or not, but a question of the will of the people.

Your suggestion is also insulting because the response to the attack here has been incredible. Madrid was not empty the day after, it was full with 2.5 million people in mourning and in defiance of what happened. They refuse to live in fear. Nobody called for war, nobody called for hot headed vengeance. I am in awe and amazed by the clear headed determination of the general public. People here want to fight terrorism, but not in the way Bush has chosen to do so. Come and look these people in the eye and tell them they are appeasing terrorists. This country has 800 casualties from ETA, and a long history of dealing with terrorism.

The terrorist actions did not produce the outcome the election, what produced the outcome were the actions of the PP. Their actions clearly went against the will of the people of Spain when they signed on to Bush's war. As many people demonstrated in anti-war protests, as did in the demonstrations this past Friday. The bombing only drove the point home. The final blow was when the PP tried to hide the evidence pointing to al-Qaeda and tried to blame ETA. If it was ETA, the PP would have won the election, which is why they lied. They knew the attack was because of Spain's participation in the war.

It cannot be suggested that the Socialist victory is somehow lessened by the bombing. Anyway you paint it, it is a political event which reflects the foreign policy of the PP.
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Old 03-15-2004, 04:35 PM   #92
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Excellent post iacrobat.
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Old 03-15-2004, 04:50 PM   #93
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I just need some clarification,,, are you opposed to actions against al-Qaeda?

It seems to me that if you feel that the government is responsible for the actions of terrorists.

I am not TRYING to put words into your mouth. I am curious.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:08 PM   #94
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No, I am not opposed to actions against al-Qaeda, though I don't believe military actions are the ONLY solution to terrorism. I think if as much money was spent on alleviating poverty and seeking dialogue as is spent on war, we'd be a lot closer to a solution.

What I am saying is that the Spanish people did not agree with the war against Iraq. The PP dragged them in to the war kicking and screaming. I am saying the actions of the PP and the actions of the terrorists are related. If the PP did as the people wanted, I think it is fair to say there would have been no attack.

I should qualify this a bit as well. I believe the PP finally lost the election because they misled people on who was behind the action, recognising that it would influence the election. If they had been open from the beginning, it is quite possible that they could have won the election.

hi Fizzingwhizzbies, I haven't around very much, but I am trying to change that.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:17 PM   #95
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Interesting, most of the 9-11 terrorists came from a very wealthy country. al-Qaeda isn't interested in dialoge - they produce change by creating fear of future attacks. It would be hard to believe that the attacks did not influence the election.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:20 PM   #96
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I am not saying the attacks didn't influence the election.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:34 PM   #97
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I think it is wrong to not hold terrorists accountable for their actions and hold a governement responsible.

When a group of people allow terrorsits to influence a political change then the terrorists have claimed a small victory. Apparently the election was going to re-elect the powers that be according to polls days before. I wonder how it would have played out without the attack. If the Spanish people were being dragged kicking and screaming, the election would not have been as close as the polls were indication prior to the 11th.

al-Qaeda is not the champion of the poor...And again, if Iraq were the issue, Britain has a much bigger bullseye.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:43 PM   #98
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I do remember seeing the demonstrators in Spain on February 15 opposing the invasion of Iraq. That probably doesn't tell the complete story of the election, but that's impossible given that there was that controversy over the government's handling of the information about the terrorists.
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Old 03-15-2004, 07:45 PM   #99
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iacrobat,

"The vote is NOT an attempt to appease the terrorists, to suggest so insults the people of Spain who have democratically elected a party that reflects and reflected their desire NOT to participate in the war against Iraq which they felt was unjust."

The PP was about to win the election according to polls until the terrorist strike. Clearly, the terrorist strike influenced enough people to vote for this new government which plans to abandon Iraq and democracy in the middle east with its planned withdrawal of Spanish forces from Iraq. Many people in Spain clearly feel that their association with the USA caused the terrorist action last week and believe that by disassociating itself with the USA, they can avoid another terrorist attack of this magnitude. Appeasement indeed.

"Sting2, this is not a question of IF it was right or not, but a question of the will of the people."

No, it is a question of the will of a plurality of the people. Its unfortunate that their choice is appeasement.

"Your suggestion is also insulting because the response to the attack here has been incredible. Madrid was not empty the day after, it was full with 2.5 million people in mourning and in defiance of what happened. They refuse to live in fear. Nobody called for war, nobody called for hot headed vengeance. I am in awe and amazed by the clear headed determination of the general public. People here want to fight terrorism, but not in the way Bush has chosen to do so. Come and look these people in the eye and tell them they are appeasing terrorists. This country has 800 casualties from ETA, and a long history of dealing with terrorism."

I imagine a large number of those people who marched the day after voted for the PP and not the appeasement policies of this new government. I dare any of those people who voted for this new government to look into the eyes of Iraqi people and tell them why the Spanish troops who have served them so well along soldiers from dozens of other nations are now being sent home. How will withdrawing Spanish troops from Iraq help the situation there or combat terrorism?

"The terrorist actions did not produce the outcome the election, what produced the outcome were the actions of the PP. Their actions clearly went against the will of the people of Spain when they signed on to Bush's war. As many people demonstrated in anti-war protests, as did in the demonstrations this past Friday. The bombing only drove the point home. The final blow was when the PP tried to hide the evidence pointing to al-Qaeda and tried to blame ETA. If it was ETA, the PP would have won the election, which is why they lied. They knew the attack was because of Spain's participation in the war."

The PP can't lie about what is has not been established as unquestionable fact yet. The bombing occured 3 days before the election. Its absurd to believe that the government covered anything up in such a short period of time.

The PP was ahead in the polls prior to the Terrorist Bombing. It appears that if it is Al Quada that they indeed planned this bombing to influence the outcome of the election. 41% of voters gave Al Quada what they were seeking, a government that withdraws from Iraq and plans to fight terrorism the way it was fought in the 1990s prior to 9/11.
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Old 03-16-2004, 12:21 AM   #100
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CNN also has obtained a document posted on an Internet message board analysts believe is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The strategy spelled out in the document, posted last December on the Internet, calls for the use of terrorism to drive Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Popular Party from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.
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