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Old 07-14-2007, 02:15 PM   #321
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I don't think that one can seperate any God from the religion, it seems any attempt to remove God from the flaws that humans imbued the concept through it's gradual creation transforms faith into some vague humanism without any claim to absolute revealed truth. I think that I get why people are willing to cling to narrow minded and bigoted religious beliefs and resist anything that upsets them but at the same time I find those pimping progressive faith to be wrong, albeit in a less dangerous way.
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:16 PM   #322
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Originally posted by AEON
I think Ormus and I have gone back and forth quite a bit on the subject in the past. I admit, I have nothing new to add.
I admit that I prefer this response to going in circles repeating myself, so, at the very least, thanks for that.
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:20 PM   #323
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Likewise, I see much of the same with many people who despise what fundamentalist Protestantism has done to the reputation of Christianity
These threads have helped me understand how poorly fundamental Protestantism is received in many communities. As a former Catholic, part-time Gnostic - I can relate to those feelings.

I am curious what aspects about traditional Protestantism theology you despise. Forget the actual people (the televangelists, the politicians), what is it about their overall theology and approach to life do you take issue with?
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:24 PM   #324
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't think that one can seperate any God from the religion, it seems any attempt to remove God from the flaws that humans imbued the concept through it's gradual creation transforms faith into some vague humanism without any claim to absolute revealed truth. I think that I get why people are willing to cling to narrow minded and bigoted religious beliefs and resist anything that upsets them but at the same time I find those pimping progressive faith to be wrong, albeit in a less dangerous way.
I think that line about "vague humanism" is the result of intellectual laziness, frankly. Most people have little knowledge of philosophy, whether it be ancient Greek philosophy, medieval Christian philosophy, or 20th century philosophy like modernism and postmodernism. Certainly, many people can recognize the word "postmodernism" and usually start conjuring up some unsavory connotations, but even a cursory reading of their "criticisms" usually reveal that they know absolutely nothing about their target of scorn.

Modern Christians can certainly avoid that "vague humanism" by appealing to either past philosophy or schools of thought that are more favorable, or--an act that requires even more vigorous study and intellectual discipline--create a whole new philosophy and school of thought in Christianity. Frankly, I think the latter is what we really need. Our unconscious tendency to cling to outdated medieval Christian theology is probably why Christianity today just seems....well, "medieval."
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:26 PM   #325
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The neo-Nazis today still like to use Germanic and Viking imagery, words/names and symbols.
I very much like the Vikings, and if it is only because my namesake was Leif Eriksson and I've very much liked the sagas about Erik the Red.

Sometimes I've the impression that part of America is catching up on the medieval times and therefore overtly-conservative when it comes to religion. I'm worried that Ormus's analogy to the Ash'ari is quite fitting.
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:28 PM   #326
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Originally posted by AEON
I am curious what aspects about traditional Protestantism theology you despise. Forget the actual people (the televangelists, the politicians), what is it about their overall theology and approach to life do you take issue with?
I find myself already coming up with several answers to this question in my head as I write this, but I wish to give this question some thought and contemplation--which, for me, requires evaluating my opinions to separate out my thoughts from what is valid and can be substantiated from which ones are just knee-jerk reactions that might have nothing to do with Protestantism specifically.

I will respond in due time.
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:31 PM   #327
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
The neo-Nazis today still like to use Germanic and Viking imagery, words/names and symbols.
I very much like the Vikings, and if it is only because my namesake was Leif Eriksson and I've very much liked the sagas about Erik the Red.
Hell, my namesake was a powerful Goth (who has a Norse saga and German epic all his own), so I completely understand the feeling!
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:34 PM   #328
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Intellectual lazyness! it is 5am in the morning here

But the points that you raise are quite valid, although I have no horse in the race at all since I don't see the need for religion in a world that doesn't need God.
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:36 PM   #329
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Intellectual lazyness! it is 5am in the morning here
I wasn't referring to you specifically.
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:38 PM   #330
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So your attacking others at the same time? I am outraged sir
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:22 PM   #331
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Originally posted by Ormus


which, for me, requires evaluating my opinions to separate out my thoughts from what is valid and can be substantiated from which ones are just knee-jerk reactions


I will respond in due time.

leave the knee-jerking* for some of the rest of us



*gut feeling, I know in my heart, orthodoxy
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:45 PM   #332
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^ Good idea.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:11 PM   #333
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Sometimes I've the impression that part of America is catching up on the medieval times and therefore overtly-conservative when it comes to religion.
Do you really think so? To me it seems we have a whole spectrum of choices here in America - from old fashioned Baptists to New Age and everything in between. That seems pretty different from my understanding of medievel Europe.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:22 PM   #334
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Our unconscious tendency to cling to outdated medieval Christian theology is probably why Christianity today just seems....well, "medieval."
I respectfully disagree. I think Christian Theology is undergoing a transformation (albeit a slow one). Especially with the success of the Emergent Church scene and the writings of Elaine Pagel. This doesn't mean that Narative Theology or Gnosticism will ever become the dominant school of thought (maybe it will, but I sort of doubt it) - but I think they are impacting Orthodoxy - moving it in a new, and very exciting direction.

I tend to appear more conservative in this forum than I really am. I have read all of Elaine Pagel's books and I thought they were very insightful. I do think that Gnostic writings were left out of the Canon for good reason, but that doesn't mean they are completely devoid of deep spiritual insights.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:15 PM   #335
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A Song of Hope
by Dennis Jernigan


where, pray tell, in any of these articles, do the authors suddenly declare their love and sexual longing for boobs and vaginas?
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:30 PM   #336
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Do you really think so? To me it seems we have a whole spectrum of choices here in America - from old fashioned Baptists to New Age and everything in between. That seems pretty different from my understanding of medievel Europe.
That's right. My impression was more based on the kind of conservative, exclusive interpretation of the bible. Like people believing in Adam and Eve, the world being 6,000 years old, creationism etc. And argumentation is often based on what is written in the bible (like on this very topic).
And worse, the Christian extremists who don't tolerate anything that doesn't fit their view.
The difference is, as you said, that there is not a "monopoly church".

I definitely would love to spend some time in the US to get a better impression as to how strong this "movement" really is, as I know that of course diversity is pretty strong, and the media here likes to focus on some aspects stronger than on others, hence misrepresenting your country.
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Old 07-15-2007, 09:34 AM   #337
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i've been trying to get you to answer the question as to whether or not "coming to christ" would make one stop being homosexual,
Irvine, I have been praying about how best to answer your question. I was discussing it with my wife and she said something very insightful. She reminded me that once we have that saving faith, God sees us as perfect, sinless, and glorious.

Essentially, God wouldn't see you as anything different than His son, Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual - it matters only that you believe.

Irvine, if you were in our congregation - I would love you as a brother in Christ. I wouldn't send you to Exodus or even hint that you need to change your orientation. I would love and accept you for everything that you are, just as God would. Instead, I would simply be there for you as a brother and strategize with you about how best to demonstrate Christlike love in this often bleak world.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:23 AM   #338
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So, if it's no problem for God, why then is it such a huge problem for so many "followers in Christ"? When God is perfectly fine with it, why is it immoral for people?
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:56 PM   #339
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So are you saying that once a homosexual accepts Christ into his life, his orientation ceases to be immoral?
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:23 PM   #340
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Me? I don't believe at all and don't care about it. For me, homosexuality is not immoral.
I don't care who or what you accept.
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