MERGED==> French Riots + a French Intifada?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Or is it......ISLAMISTS?

[Q]Algerian group calls France 'enemy number one'

PARIS, Sept 27 (AFP) - An Algerian Islamist organisation, the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), has issued a call for action against France which it describes as "enemy number one", intelligence officials said Tuesday.

"The only way to teach France to behave is jihad and the Islamic martyr," the group's leader Abu Mossab Abdelwadoud, also own as Abdelmalek Dourkdal, was quoted as saying in an Internet message earlier this month.

"France is our enemy number one, the enemy of our religion, the enemy of our community," he was quoted as saying.

France was mentioned 15 times in the text, and the Algerian government was also targeted, the officials said.

Nine people detained in a series of raids west of Paris Monday are suspected members of the GSPC, officials have said. They were being questioned for a second day Tuesday at the headquarters of the DST domestic intelligence agency.

Interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy said Monday that the risk of terrorist attack in France is "at a very high level... There are cells operating on our territory."

The GSPC was created from a split in the Armed Islamic Group (GIA), the main force in Algeria's long insurgency which was also responsible for a series of bombings in France in 1995.
[/Q]

http://www.expatica.com/source/site...lgerian+group+calls+France+’enemy+number+one’
 
If 30% of these people are unemployed and they were brought in, originally, as temporary labor, why can't they be deported back, since they are no longer needed? Of course, actually enforcing immigration law seems to be the million dollar question in the world.

Melon
 
PARIS


The urban unrest that triggered scores of arson attacks on vehicles, nursery schools and other targets across France reached the capital overnight, with police saying early Sunday that 13 cars were burned.

By 1 a.m., at least 607 vehicles were burned _ including those in Paris, said Patrick Hamon, spokesman for the national police. The overall figures were expected to climb by daybreak, he added.



The violence _ originally concentrated in neighborhoods northeast of Paris with large immigrant populations _ has spread across France during the past 10 nights, extending west to the rolling fields of Normandy and south to resort cities on the Mediterranean.

In the Normandy town of Evreux, arsonists burned at least 50 vehicles, part of a shopping center, a post office and two schools, Hamon said.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/05/D8DMLUQO1.html
 
I wonder if other European countries would soon see the same thing. Anger has been brewing in all immigrant communities all over Europe.
 
Last edited:
ArrogantU2Fan said:
Hey Fort worth Frog.....I am in Fort worth toooo....Susan

Welcome to FYM! Good to see another Fort Worthian on the board.


On a side note GO FROGS!!!! We just won the Mountain West COnference tonight!!!!:hyper: :hyper: :rockon: :rockon: :dance: :dance:
 
Dreadsox said:
Shit....if there were rioting like this in the USA....this forum would be hopping.

Instead...its a dead thread....and the French....get off free.
I suppose most feel more entitled to an opinion when it's American problems in the spotlight.

I doubt much of any premeditated Islamist strategy underlies these riots. Too sloppy, too spontaneous, too self-defeating and too unproductive.

I gather most of the rioters are French-born children of immigrants, not immigrants themselves. Which would make them French citizens and thus not deportable. Anyway, if you're going to invite people to uproot their families and move thousands of miles to live in a completely foreign culture, housed cheek-by-jowl in shabby buildings in crime-ridden neighborhoods ignored by police, and working for what they can immediately see are the country's lowest wages, then you really do owe them at least the opportunity to stay, in my view. It's not like offering someone a temp job on the other side of town.

I do think that the French police deserve a significant share of the blame for having allowed these neighborhoods to become no-men's-lands in the first place. If nothing else, it means they've failed all the French citizens living in them who have never been involved in crime and violence, and are now losing their personal safety and property in spite of it.
 
one major difference between the US and Europe is that US is a whole lot more accomodating to its immigrants than europe is. this isnt a matter of left or right, or existence of a social security net, it is a matter of attitude. french in general are hostile towards immigration and immigrants, and it certainly does not make immigrants feel welcome.
 
:eyebrow:

I wonder where some of you get informed. It looks like everybody here has a view on everything but some of you are very far from knowing exactly the issue.

all_i_want, how can you know that the French people / government are hostile towards immigrants and make them feel not welcomed ? Are you an immigrant living in France ?
 
nope, im not, but thats what ive heard from some people who are. men like sarkozy and le pen are popular figures there as well, and they are rather open about how they feel about immigrants. to quote mr sarkozy, they are 'scum'. that guy is probably gonna be the next french president. go figure.
 
all_i_want said:
nope, im not, but thats what ive heard from some people who are. men like sarkozy and le pen are popular figures there as well, and they are rather open about how they feel about immigrants. to quote mr sarkozy, they are 'scum'. that guy is probably gonna be the next french president. go figure.

I'm not sure Sarkozy is as confident as he was a few months ago. I hope he won't be the next president, he scares me and is unable to talk properly to people, he's got too much anger in him. But be careful, you shouldn't mix Le Pen and him, they're different. Have you got a link or something where you read or heard that he said that the immigrants in France were "scum" ? I think he said that the criminals who destroyed shops, schools and everything were "scum". Which isn't the same thing. It hasn't been stated yet that the criminals were all immigrants.
 
Here is a very interesting article about the problems currently in France.

All I can say is that I have heard about discrimination against Africans and "Arabs" (for lack of a better term) in France FOR YEARS in the international media - this is not a new situation.

Sooner or later, the pot boils over.

Hope that everything can be worked out peaceably soon. :wink:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4408972.stm



Clichy's 'les miserables'
By Joseph Winter

BBC News website, Clichy-sous-Bois


The unrest has been spreading


See the aftermath
The authorities have cleared away the burned-out vehicles from in front of the tower blocks in Clichy-sous-Bois, but the smouldering resentment felt by the area's young residents cannot be extinguished so quickly.

Groups of boys and young men still hang around outside the area's shops and cafes and treat strangers with deep suspicion, if not outright hostility.

Although some complain that their voices are never heard, as we tried to speak to local residents, we were told at one point to leave the area or risk being attacked.

The nights of violence over the past week have given some young men a rare sense of control - even if it is only of the streets where they live.

"There is a dangerous cocktail here," said Ahmed Belmokhtar, a taxi-driver of Algerian origin, like many of those who live in the poor, crime-ridden estates like Clichy, which ring Paris.

He listed the rampant unemployment, heavy-handed policing, discrimination, poor housing and a concentration of large numbers of immigrants from North and West Africa, along with their descendents.

Many feel that the state ignores them at best and at worst stands in the way of their attempts to escape the estates.

'Dead for nothing'


The friends of Bouna and Zyed hope they rest in peace.
The most recent spark to ignite - all too literally - this cocktail was the death of two young Clichy boys of African origin - Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17 - allegedly as they ran away from the police.

Photos of the pair with the words "Rest in peace" are being sent round mobile phones in the area.

Some of their friends are wearing black sweat-shirts emblazoned with the slogan "Dead - for nothing".

The death of a child is always extremely emotional but the undercurrent of alienation has been there for many years and has periodically spilled over into violence.

Grievances

The run-down, graffiti-ridden tower-blocks, some with broken and boarded-up windows, stretch for miles and miles.

Those who live there say that when they go for a job, as soon as they give their name as "Mamadou" and say they live in Clichy, they are immediately told that the vacancy has been taken.

When high numbers of unemployed young men live together, the outcome is often violence.

A young woman, Maratt Sabek, said that black and Arabic women do not face nearly as much discrimination in the job market as their brothers.

But what will the violence achieve?


Many Clichy residents see a bleak future among the tower blocks
"It's catastrophic - we're the ones who suffer," said one young woman, who was too afraid to give her name.

The cars and shops which are burnt belong to those who have managed to find a job and save up despite all the obstacles they face.

One woman who is visiting friends and relations in Clichy said she was astonished to see the flames and hear the police sirens, saying it reminded her of home - Algeria, where a decade-long civil war has just about finished.

This may be an exaggeration but it is a comparison which would still shock many French people who have never seen the near-third world deprivation in their midst.

Scared residents

The owner of a smart gents outfitters in nearby Aulnay-sous-Bois - which has also seen several nights of rioting - said that his sales had crashed by some 30% in the past week.

"People are afraid - they know their car could be burnt tonight," he said.

And train-drivers and conductors have gone on strike after their colleagues were attacked, making it even more difficult for Clichy residents to travel to other parts of the Paris area where work can be found.

And yet, as always, life carries on.

One woman carrying huge bags of onions and potatoes to her flat confessed to being too afraid to go out at night over the past week or so but said she had not actually witnessed any of the violence herself.

Just three blocks away, the car-park remains littered with burnt-out rubber and shattered glass.

Ahmed, the taxi driver, says while Clichy's residents are only adding to their own suffering in the short term by their violence, it is their only way of "sounding the alarm.

"In the long term, it will force the government to do something for the area. Otherwise, the next round of violence will be even worse."
 
It's funny how no one seems to be really listening to Marie - the one person in this thread who is actually French. 'Hearing about' stuff or 'someone I know saying' to me doesn't carry as much weight as hearing it straight from the horse's mouth as it were :shrug:
 
all_i_want said:
one major difference between the US and Europe is that US is a whole lot more accomodating to its immigrants than europe is. this isnt a matter of left or right, or existence of a social security net, it is a matter of attitude. french in general are hostile towards immigration and immigrants, and it certainly does not make immigrants feel welcome.
Is that so ? what did happend in LA after rodney king ? When i am in Dallas i always hear things about mexicans that are not very nice,....
 
melon said:
If 30% of these people are unemployed and they were brought in, originally, as temporary labor, why can't they be deported back, since they are no longer needed?

Surely mass deporations such as this are impractical for all kinds of political, pragmatic and moral reasons.

I know that German brought in lots of 'Gastarbeiter' - guest workers - from the 1950's onwards. Many from Turkey. Though there have been tensions between the immigrants and natives, it doesn't seem to have led to a situation as bad as in France (to date).
 
if there is anyone to blame, it is the French politicians who have been ignoring the problems in the banlieus for the last 15 years. The banlieu situation - the problematic situation there - was already described in my french lessons, and thats 14 years ago.

I think it is the first big direct violent reaction to the direct impact of (the EU version of) neo-liberal politics. We all knew cities were gonna burn at some point. This is just the start.
 
I think Europe is the next stage for terrorism/ehtnic conflicts. With about 7 million muslims living in abject segregated poverty in France alone, I am suprised this is just happening now.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:
I think it is the first big direct violent reaction to the direct impact of (the EU version of) neo-liberal politics. We all knew cities were gonna burn at some point. This is just the start.


And what precisely would you advocate as an alternative to 'neo-liberal politics', as you call them?
 
Tarvark said:
I think Europe is the next stage for terrorism/ehtnic conflicts. With about 7 million muslims living in abject segregated poverty in France alone, I am suprised this is just happening now.

'Abject segregated poverty' - I don't agree Tarvark, they are financially better off in France than they would be in their home countries. I do think that A_Wanderer might have a point in regard to France's excessive social welfare provisioning.

The Muslims in France, as in other European countries, should make greater efforts to integrate. Might not be PC to say it, but there you go.
 
Last edited:
financeguy said:

The Muslims in France, as in other European countries, should make greater efforts to integrate. Might not be PC to say it, but there you go.

When Europeans go to Muslim countries, we respect their traditions.

I don't think it's asking too much for Muslims to do the same.

You probably have a point (although it's definitely not PC :wink: ).

I have to wonder, if anyone has any perspective on this...are the conditions for African immigrants in France better or worse in general than for (mainly) Mexicans coming to the US?
 
VertigoGal said:
I have to wonder, if anyone has any perspective on this...are the conditions for African immigrants in France better or worse in general than for (mainly) Mexicans coming to the US?


Mexicans coming to the US have to work, otherwise they'll starve.

Immigrants into France in many cases are living on state handouts. It's the unfortunate legacy of France's particular brand of socialism and state dependency. I don't blame the immigrants at all - but the rioters are thugs, as Sarkovy rightly described them. It's a measure of political correctness gone mad if a duly appointed government minister of France can't call a spade a spade.

And the excuses being put forward by 2 or 3 posters in this thread for violent thuggery are truly disturbing.
 
financeguy said:


Surely mass deporations such as this are impractical for all kinds of political, pragmatic and moral reasons.

I know that German brought in lots of 'Gastarbeiter' - guest workers - from the 1950's onwards. Many from Turkey. Though there have been tensions between the immigrants and natives, it doesn't seem to have led to a situation as bad as in France (to date).

I've known dozens of people like that in Germany and I'd say their financial status and living conditions are considerably higher than those of the North Africans in France. So while they may experience bigotry and racism in Germany, they're not slumming it, or at least not to the same extent.
 
GRIGNY, France, Nov 7 (Reuters) - Rioters fired shots at police and set hundreds of cars ablaze in an 11th night of violence in France on Monday, hours after President Jacques Chirac vowed to restore order.

Ten policemen were injured, two of them seriously, when a group of youths fired at police with shotguns in Grigny, south of Paris, police said. One officer was treated with lead shot wounds to the throat, another suffered injuries to one leg.

"They really shot at officers. This is real, serious violence. It's not like the previous nights. I am very concerned because this is mounting," one police officer said.
link

If they get riots when two people manage to electrocute themselves imagine the situation when the police or military actually kill one of them.
 
financeguy said:



Mexicans coming to the US have to work, otherwise they'll starve.

Immigrants into France in many cases are living on state handouts. It's the unfortunate legacy of France's particular brand of socialism and state dependency. I don't blame the immigrants at all - but the rioters are thugs, as Sarkovy rightly described them. It's a measure of political correctness gone mad if a duly appointed government minister of France can't call a spade a spade.

Right...living off the dole probably doesn't do much for a man's motivation or state of mind in general.

And I have to agree with you on the thugs who are perpetrating these riots. Going around smashing storefronts and burning cars in their own, or any, neighborhood is not an acceptable form of protest. The "society has failed them" argument only goes so far. I'm going to take the un-PCness to a whole new level, and suggest that certain elements within Islam are attracting disaffected young French Muslims who feel caught between cultures, and encouraging that they view themselves as separate, as outsiders. Would that be a fair assessment?
 
Steyn takes a more pessimistic line on all of this, marks for consistency though he has been in there advocating "Eurabian civil war" for quite some time
Ever since 9/11, I've been gloomily predicting the European powder keg's about to go up. ''By 2010 we'll be watching burning buildings, street riots and assassinations on the news every night,'' I wrote in Canada's Western Standard back in February.

Silly me. The Eurabian civil war appears to have started some years ahead of my optimistic schedule. As Thursday's edition of the Guardian reported in London: ''French youths fired at police and burned over 300 cars last night as towns around Paris experienced their worst night of violence in a week of urban unrest.''

''French youths,'' huh? You mean Pierre and Jacques and Marcel and Alphonse? Granted that most of the "youths" are technically citizens of the French Republic, it doesn't take much time in les banlieus of Paris to discover that the rioters do not think of their primary identity as ''French'': They're young men from North Africa growing ever more estranged from the broader community with each passing year and wedded ever more intensely to an assertive Muslim identity more implacable than anything you're likely to find in the Middle East. After four somnolent years, it turns out finally that there really is an explosive ''Arab street,'' but it's in Clichy-sous-Bois.
link
 
Congratulations A_Wanderer. You've just ruined a perfectly decent debate by bringing Mark Fascist Steyn into it.

Well done.
 
Back
Top Bottom