MERGED--> Face the facts Hillary + Desperate Clinton Danger to Party

[Headache in a Suitcase]

What scares me and is currently preventing me from casting a vote his way is that he just doesn't seem to have the complete "walk the walk talk the talk" in Experience, not as much as I feel Hillary has. Not meaning to start a huge debate here, just my opinions. Obama is a great motivational speaker, don't get me wrong. He can move people and bring them together. He is very intelligent. I just feel he falls short in the experience category. He doesn't have enough political experience under his belt. Maybe I would not feel so scared if I knew who his running mate/VP would be. I just feel the position of the President of the USA requires someone who can do more than talk his/her way through issues & motivate people with great speeches and promising great ideas.

On the flip side I have my reservations about Hillary also. But she's been in the political arena for many more years than Barrack albeit mostly support or back-ground positions, like First Lady. But she's lived in the White House, she's lived in a Governor's mansion as well. And she has her own legal and political career under her belt. Again, I'd like to know who her running mate/VP would be. I think Hillary is very tough and she's got Bill who I think despite his personal embarrassment while in office, by her side is a great asset.

No way will I vote for McCain.

That's my dilemma.

how exactly does being first lady make her more qualified to be president than obama? is the wife of a great veteran pilot more qualified to fly a plane than a guy who's only been flying for a few years? i don't get this whole "she was the first lady, she's qualified" argument.

 

[U2democrat]

If you look at the mechanics of the campaign, he is practicing exactly what he preaches. The way it is entirely grassroots is change in itself, the fact that the average donation is $96 from average Janes and Joes, that is the change. We are already seeing it in his campaign.

As for experience, I have banged my head over and over. Historically, there is little to no correlation between the experience of a candidate and how well they did as president. I even found a link where historians had ranked the presidents and listed years of experience, and the best presidents in some cases had a lot of experience, in others had relatively little. Same for the worst presidents, some had a lot, some had a little. There really is no relation.

That being said, if it's really experience that worries you, look at Obama's entire life. He is a person of the world. Not only can he relate to struggling Americans, but he also understands international relations because he's been there, he's not an ethnocentric American. He understands how the world works. If you want to talk about just elected experience, remember, he was elected before Hillary.

What do you think he's going to do? Curl up in the fetal position if things start getting bad? Get trigger happy? Or, as he's done on the campaign trail, when things get tough, remains calm cool and collected. Just what we need in the White House.

 

[Irvine511]

If you look at the mechanics of the campaign, he is practicing exactly what he preaches. The way it is entirely grassroots is change in itself, the fact that the average donation is $96 from average Janes and Joes, that is the change. We are already seeing it in his campaign.

As for experience, I have banged my head over and over. Historically, there is little to no correlation between the experience of a candidate and how well they did as president. I even found a link where historians had ranked the presidents and listed years of experience, and the best presidents in some cases had a lot of experience, in others had relatively little. Same for the worst presidents, some had a lot, some had a little. There really is no relation.

That being said, if it's really experience that worries you, look at Obama's entire life. He is a person of the world. Not only can he relate to struggling Americans, but he also understands international relations because he's been there, he's not an ethnocentric American. He understands how the world works. If you want to talk about just elected experience, remember, he was elected before Hillary.

What do you think he's going to do? Curl up in the fetal position if things start getting bad? Get trigger happy? Or, as he's done on the campaign trail, when things get tough, remains calm cool and collected. Just what we need in the White House.

sounds like somebody's been doin' some learnin' while in college.

great post.

 

[Butterscotch]

how exactly does being first lady make her more qualified to be president than obama? is the wife of a great veteran pilot more qualified to fly a plane than a guy who's only been flying for a few years? i don't get this whole "she was the first lady, she's qualified" argument.

Very true, it bugged me all along that she claimed experience when really it was her husband's. Could anybody else put down their spouse's work history on their resume and expect to get hired? She's no more qualified than Obama.

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Very true, it bugged me all along that she claimed experience when really it was her husband's. Could anybody else put down their spouse's work history on their resume and expect to get hired? She's no more qualified than Obama.

thank you.. People just don't seem to get that... As was mentioned being a first lady does not count as years in your political career. Yes, they do some work (she has when she was first lady) but not on the scale of the President or even a politician IMO.

also good post Laura! well said and well researched, the girl knows her stuff thats why she is going to skool to be edaumacated...

 

[Salome]

Very true, it bugged me all along that she claimed experience when really it was her husband's. Could anybody else put down their spouse's work history on their resume and expect to get hired?

I don't feel like defending Hillary, but yes, being a First Lady must be one of the only ways to get some sort of idea what it is like to be the president of the USA without actually being the president of the USA

this does not make her experienced though

while typing this I noticed how logical that seems

 

[VintagePunk]

If you look at the mechanics of the campaign, he is practicing exactly what he preaches. The way it is entirely grassroots is change in itself, the fact that the average donation is $96 from average Janes and Joes, that is the change. We are already seeing it in his campaign.

As for experience, I have banged my head over and over. Historically, there is little to no correlation between the experience of a candidate and how well they did as president. I even found a link where historians had ranked the presidents and listed years of experience, and the best presidents in some cases had a lot of experience, in others had relatively little. Same for the worst presidents, some had a lot, some had a little. There really is no relation.

That being said, if it's really experience that worries you, look at Obama's entire life. He is a person of the world. Not only can he relate to struggling Americans, but he also understands international relations because he's been there, he's not an ethnocentric American. He understands how the world works. If you want to talk about just elected experience, remember, he was elected before Hillary.

What do you think he's going to do? Curl up in the fetal position if things start getting bad? Get trigger happy? Or, as he's done on the campaign trail, when things get tough, remains calm cool and collected. Just what we need in the White House.

Very well said.

I always find the lack of experience argument a little suspect. It's not like he'll hold the position in isolation, he'll have a whole host of aides and advisors. All presidents depend heavily on their inner circle like this, regardless of how much experience they have.

As well, it's pretty clear that he's intelligent and capable of reasoned, nuanced thinking. That's more than can be said for your current president.

I don't feel like defending Hillary, but yes, being a First Lady must be one of the only ways to get some sort of idea what it is like to be the president of the USA without actually being the president of the USA

this does not make her experienced though

while typing this I noticed how logical that seems

Exactly. I don't know how people can deny that Hillary didn't learn a thing or two as First Lady. Short of actually holding the position yourself or being in the inner circle of a sitting president, I can't imagine a better way of gaining the knowledge and perspective that she must have gotten through the experience. This holds especially true for someone like her, who had/has political aspirations of her own.

 

[Harry Vest]

Desperate Clinton is Danger to the Party

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/05/desperate_clinton_is_danger_to.html

 

[Butterscotch]

I don't feel like defending Hillary, but yes, being a First Lady must be one of the only ways to get some sort of idea what it is like to be the president of the USA without actually being the president of the USA

this does not make her experienced though

while typing this I noticed how logical that seems

So, shall Laura Bush run next time? Barbara Bush?

 

[Harry Vest]

So, shall Laura Bush run next time? Barbara Bush?

EXACTLY!!!

 

[VintagePunk]

EXACTLY!!!

Please.

Barbara was a wife and mother, Laura an elementary school teacher and a librarian. While they did have their pet causes as First Ladies neither of them have shown any political aspirations of their own. Hillary hardly compares with the two of them.

 

[Salome]

I don't think I ever said that Hillary is the perfect candidate because she was the First Lady
I just pointed out that I do think it's fair to guess that she has more of an idea what it's like to be the President of the USA than most other people

but rant away

 

[Butterscotch]

Please.

Barbara was a wife and mother, Laura an elementary school teacher and a librarian. While they did have their pet causes as First Ladies neither of them have shown any political aspirations of their own. Hillary hardly compares with the two of them.

So this makes them stupid and unworthy? They were still there to experience the presidency as she was. They may not have had political aspirations, but that doesn't make them incapable of knowing and understanding what goes on.

 

[VintagePunk]

So this makes them stupid and unworthy? They were still there to experience the presidency as she was. They may not have had political aspirations, but that doesn't make them incapable of knowing and understanding what goes on.

I didn't say they were stupid and unworthy (although yes, now that you mention it, the fact that they have no political experience of their own certainly does make them unworthy). I am merely pointing out that this is an area where their interests seem not to lie. I think they have shown this by the paths that their careers, or lack thereof in the case of Barbara, have taken.

Of course a spouse is going to have some degree of interest in what their partner does for a living, that's fairly normal in most cases. However, if that spouse had a special interest in following the career path of her partner, they're going to pay more attention and become more involved, aren't they? It's only logical.

 

[popshopper]

Please.

Barbara was a wife and mother, Laura an elementary school teacher and a librarian. While they did have their pet causes as First Ladies neither of them have shown any political aspirations of their own. Hillary hardly compares with the two of them.

And Hillary was a lawyer (not a particularly great one having failed the DC bar exam) and a Walmart board member. Politically, she has only 1 term more than Obama at the Federal level, and they're about equal in actual elected experience when you factor in Obama's time in the state senate.

As I said, between the two of them I don't have much of a preference. They've both decent candidates, but Hillary made some silly mistakes when campaigning, she ran an 'experience' campaign in the primary when the general would be against someone who is older than soot (and anyway you cut it on experience McCain has an edge). More than that I believe that given the last 8 years the campaign should have been about 'Change'. There's a reason Obama's rhetoric is so successful, it's tapping into the frustration against the current administration and the current status quo in Washington. 'Experience' just seems flat against that sort of argument.

 

[deep]

And Hillary was a lawyer (not a particularly great one having failed the DC bar exam) and a Walmart board member. Politically, she has only 1 term more than Obama at the Federal level,

she ran real hard for the Presidential nomination in 2004 against Kerry and Edwards,
do you remember how well she did?

 

[Harry Vest]

Please.

Barbara was a wife and mother, Laura an elementary school teacher and a librarian. While they did have their pet causes as First Ladies neither of them have shown any political aspirations of their own. Hillary hardly compares with the two of them.

PLEASE...She is NOT getting the nomination...PERIOD!!!
So you can give up hope NOW and quit defending such a mean spirited try-and-win-at-all-costs-including-being-a-racist politician!!! Thank God it was too little too late.

 

[VintagePunk]

PLEASE...She is NOT getting the nomination...PERIOD!!!
So you can give up hope NOW and quit defending such a mean spirited try-and-win-at-all-costs-including-being-a-racist politician!!! Thank God it was too little too late.

I didn't say she was getting the nomination, nor did I ever say I wanted her to. Just trying to point out some of the inaccuracies of your shrill, histrionic arguments against her, that's all.

 

[sue4u2]

I didn't say she was getting the nomination, nor did I ever say I wanted her to. Just trying to point out some of the inaccuracies of your shrill, histrionic arguments against her, that's all.

I gave up trying to have conversations with this type of irrational attitude long ago.
I've lived through the toughest 3 decades of my life, both emotionally and financially - and it was only in the Clinton years that I felt any kind of security and hope in my government. She had a direct say in her husbands policy's at times and even though I didn't like every decision Bill made, the economy was better and the state of the union in general was better when he & she were in office. That's enough experience for me.
I am pulling for her and even if she doesn't win the nomination, she doesn't loose my respect for what she's trying to do.
and I don't care who doesn't agree.
Oh, and I will vote for Obama if he wins the nomination.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Exactly. I don't know how people can deny that Hillary didn't learn a thing or two as First Lady. Short of actually holding the position yourself or being in the inner circle of a sitting president, I can't imagine a better way of gaining the knowledge and perspective that she must have gotten through the experience. This holds especially true for someone like her, who had/has political aspirations of her own.

if she really spent that much time in bill's "inner circle" then explain to me how she didn't notice the cubby chick hiding beneath the desk.


look... i'm sure she learned something about being the president, just like i'm sure my doctor's wife has learned something about surgery... i still don't want her holding the knife.

but if she, too, went through medical school, then of course she'd certainly be qualified... but still no more than the other guy.

fact is that hillary doesn't have any more hands on first person experience than obama does. which is fine.

 

[deep]

if she really spent that much time in bill's "inner circle" then explain to me how she didn't notice the cubby chick hiding beneath the desk.


look... i'm sure she learned something about being the president, just like i'm sure my doctor's wife has learned something about surgery... i still don't want her holding the knife.

but if she, too, went through medical school, then of course she'd certainly be qualified... but still no more than the other guy.

fact is that hillary doesn't have any more hands on first person experience than obama does. which is fine.

this might be true

if she ran in 2004

a lot of people did want her to run

but, realistically a freshman senator, with only 4 years might get support, because of her gender and the symbolism of "change"

but 8 years in the Senate, a resounding re-election in 2006
made 2008 a more realistic year for her to seek the nomination.

 

[VintagePunk]

if she really spent that much time in bill's "inner circle" then explain to me how she didn't notice the cubby chick hiding beneath the desk.


look... i'm sure she learned something about being the president, just like i'm sure my doctor's wife has learned something about surgery... i still don't want her holding the knife.

but if she, too, went through medical school, then of course she'd certainly be qualified... but still no more than the other guy.

fact is that hillary doesn't have any more hands on first person experience than obama does. which is fine.

Of course you wouldn't want a doctor's wife performing your surgery, nor a pilot's wife flying your plane. Those aren't exactly fitting analogies, though.

I never said that this makes her more qualified than Obama, only that the notion of comparing her with former First Ladies is ridiculous. I didn't say anything about hands-on experience, either, just the knowledge and perspective she would have gained by being a First Lady who also had political aspirations. It seems that some in this thread have attributed certain things to my posts that simply aren't there. A page ago, I also defended Obama's "lack of experience."

But then, calling a spade a spade around here, saying *anything* positive about Hillary seems to be taken as an automatic diss on Obama.

 

[Irvine511]

if we are going to argue that Obama's only-in-America genealogy combined with a childhood overseas is going to give him a valuable and nuanced view of the world and different cultures that will be an asset to him as president, then i think we can argue that Hillary's experiences and exposures (those that are accurate, not fantastical) are also of value.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

this might be true

if she ran in 2004

a lot of people did want her to run

but, realistically a freshman senator, with only 4 years might get support, because of her gender and the symbolism of "change"

but 8 years in the Senate, a resounding re-election in 2006
made 2008 a more realistic year for her to seek the nomination.

ok... so she has a whopping 4 more years of experience. oh that's gonna tilt the scales for me, let me tell ya.

and for her resounding re-election... i honestly don't know another new york politician who is disliked more but wins by so much. maybe it's that people just don't want to admit to liking her, or maybe (and in reality) it's that the population of democrat heavy new york city tips the scales so much that it doesn't really matter how the rest of the state feels.

 

[A_Wanderer]

That experience and doggedness will count after McCains single term.

 

[Irvine511]

i think she's now angling for VP. and the fact that she runs strongest where he's weak -- the "bitter" vote -- makes her a very formidable choice.

but it's also interesting to note that she made the point that no Democrat has won the presidency since 1916.

the same can be said about Minnesota.