MERGED--> all discussion of Israel/Lebanon conflict

[joyfulgirl]

The reality is that Israel exists and SHOULD continue to exist. What it should also do is act as the democracy it declares itself to be. Democracies don't invade other countries because a soldier has been kidnapped. Democracies don't exact collective responsibility on entire populations for the actions of a minority. Israel does as it pleases and then says f**k off to international opinion when international opinion criticizes any of its actions.

And yes, Israel suffers terrible terrorist threats but those threats will not be lessened or tackled by acting as it does which incites more volunteers to sign up to the same terrorist organisations.

 

[Justin24]

The reality is that Israel exists and SHOULD continue to exist. What it should also do is act as the democracy it declares itself to be. Democracies don't invade other countries because a soldier has been kidnapped. Democracies don't exact collective responsibility on entire populations for the actions of a minority. Israel does as it pleases and then says f**k off to international opinion when international opinion criticizes any of its actions.

But didn't Lebanon invade Israel and kidnapp two soldiers. Since Hezbolah considers it self a governmental power?

There are suicide bombings which kill dozens of israelies because the palestinian suicide bomber doesn't like the government of israel.

 

[deep]

There are suicide bombings which kill dozens of Israelis because the Palestinian suicide bomber doesn't like the government of israel.

Things would be much better

If Israel had to use suicide bombings

instead of gun boats that lob rockets on families on the beach

or missiles fired by helicopter gun ships into crowded apartment buildings killing innocent women and babies

 

[verte76]

But didn't Lebanon invade Israel and kidnapp two soldiers. Since Hezbolah considers it self a governmental power?

There are suicide bombings which kill dozens of israelies because the palestinian suicide bomber doesn't like the government of israel.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Israel needs to stop acting like it can do any damn thing they please because democratic countries don't behave like that.

 

[Justin24]

Well whats the story about the family. How do we know they didn't do something to Provoke the soldiers?

 

[Justin24]

But dosent Israel have a right to defend herself as Bush would say???

 

[Irvine511]

^ Reading that Iraq bit just about made me sick.

yeah, well, as Rumsfeld would tell you, stuff happens.

 

[verte76]

I really feel badly for the Iraqi people. They shouldn't have to deal with this crud.

 

[Justin24]

They should take a stand against the insurgency and put an end to the bloodshed, unite the country and create a new country where they will feel safe.

 

[Irvine511]

They should take a stand against the insurgency and put an end to the bloodshed, unite the country and create a new country where they will feel safe.

because it's obviously that simple.

 

[Justin24]

Iran warns of 'fierce response' should Israel strike at Syria

By Haaretz Service and News Agencies

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Thursday an Israeli strike on Syria would be considered an attack on the whole Islamic world that would bring a "fierce response", state television reported.

"If the Zionist regime commits another stupid move and attacks Syria, this will be considered like attacking the whole Islamic world and this regime will receive a very fierce response," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying in a telephone conversation with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738315.html

 

[Justin24]

because it's obviously that simple.

You don't think the people of Iraq are cabable?

 

[STING2]

sadly, it appears as if "vs. the Rest of the Middle East" is quite accurate. and who is in ever increasing control of the Middle East?

Iran




but everything's just fine, of course. we should simply ignore how Iran has successfully infiltrated and now controls a large chunk of Iraq. such success has emboldened the mullahs not only to charge ahead in acquiring nuclear weapons, but also to attack Israel via Hezbollah:





it's going to be 111 degrees in Baghdad all week. and 130,000 American soldiers are caught in the middle of everything, a war that was always a regional conflict.

for all the talk about what a regional menace Saddam was, it now appears as if Iran and Syria are just as dangerous to the region, if not worse.

Wow, Iran talks to Hezbollah and a few Israely soldiers are captured. Now were claiming that Iran controls the middle east?

Iran and Syria have been involved with Hezbollah and Humas for decades! Iran has influence in Iraq, but they do not control any part of Iraq. There are foreign countries that do control parts of Iraq, but Iran is not one of them.

The fact that several dozen people died throughout Iraq on Tuesday does not show that the Iraqi government is in crises. The Iraqi government rather has successfully formed despite all the claims that Iraq was in or would soon be in a full blown civil war.

Yes, lets compare Syrian and Iranian actions to Saddam's actions over the past couple of decades. Which is more menacing, giving approval for small terrorist attacks through a proxy like Hezbolah, or invading another country with your own military and launching ballistic missiles at other countries? Threatening the planets energy supply with siezure and sabotage through ones attacks and invasions, or using a proxy to launch what are relatively small attacks against another country?

When was the last time Syria or Iran directly invaded or attacked another country? When was the last time either one of those countries used WMD?

When Saddam wanted to attack Iran he did not use a terror proxy, he used his own military to invade the country. When Saddam wanted to attack Israel, he launched dozens of his own ballistic missiles, he did not need to use a proxy like Hezbollah.



So lets keep things in perspective here. Syria and Iran play no greater role in Hezbollah and Humas actions than at any time over the past decade. Israel occupied Southern Lebanon for 18 years up until 2000. Shelling and airstrikes should not come as a surprise. This is not a new conflict.

In terms of military equipment, Iran still only has half of the amount of tanks, armored vehicles, artillery pieces, aircraft etc. that Iraq had prior to the removal of Saddam. Much of the equipment also dates back to when the Shah was in power and is very outdated. The primary motivation for Iran's nuclear and other WMD programs that were started two decades ago, was Saddam's capabilties in these area's and the casualties Iran suffered from WMD during its war with Saddam.

Syria is far better equiped than Iran is, but its also to far from the Persian Gulf to invade or attack the vital energy resources in that region. Its forces are mainly deployed along its border with Israel and Lebanon and its unlikely they would be used in any other role except for a conflict with Israel.

Everything is far from being fine, but this is not another doomsday senerio. Its not World War III as many in the media suggest, nor is a escalutating totally out of control situation. The Middle East has not collapsed. Its faced far more serious crises in the past.

 

[verte76]

Israel does indeed have the right to defend itself. It must. This doesn't mean they have any business invading other countries, however. That won't do.

 

[melon]

Lebanon is a failed state. It was effectively controlled by Syria for decades, and still has, at least, some of its strings still pulled by it. Hezbollah, on the other end, is the other real power player in Lebanon. If Lebanon is incapable and/or unwilling to deal with Hezbollah, which is a demonstrable and recognized terrorist organization, then Israel will deal with Hezbollah itself. That is precisely what it is doing.

Melon

 

[shart1780]

Why is most of the Mid East brave enough to keep picking on Israel?

I'm no expert on these countries' military power r anything, but from what I've seen and heard it seems like Israel could kick some major arse. Are these countries simply attacing them because they think they can get away with it, or are they possibly slitting their own throats?

 

[nbcrusader]

Somehow, I knew this was Israel’s fault

Resorting to fraudulent allusions of previous incidents (shelling the beach) as a means to ignore a large population’s active and passive support of terrorist organizations is appalling.

Israel has every right to take the actions it has. Allowing placement of rockets so close to the border is by itself an act of aggression. It has nothing to do with being a “democratic” country. It has everything to do with a country surrounded by enemies (who would love to kill all the Jews) trying to keep its citizens safe from indiscriminate rocket attacks.

If we were so concerned with Israel’s response to international criticism, perhaps we would hear something more than silence concerning terrorist “governments” before Israel is forced to deal with another attack.

Besides, Hezbollah (likely at Iran’s direction) is merely taking the attention away from Iran’s continued nuclear development.

 

[trevster2k]

Nothing will change, the attacks will continue and frankly, the only way Israel will stop the terrorist attacks from Arab states is to wipe out every man, woman and child from those regions. Sorry, but that is the only solution which would guarantee their safety.

I agree with financeguy that Israel's response is way out of proportion to the incident which sparked it. I'm tired of the terrorists and the government backed killings of innocents by Israel. How many innocent civilians will suffer in the coming weeks and months as a result of the attacks on the civilian infrastructure? How many Israelis will die as a result of this offensive manouver? Is it worth it cause at the end of the day, there will be more terrorist attacks in Israel and it will go on and on and on from both sides.

Regarding punishing the Lebanese or Palesitinians for "allowing" terrorism, what are we gonna do, take away their tents? These people are already in a desperate position which is probably half the reason they are so willing to use extreme measures to attack Israel.

 

[nbcrusader]

Israel does have a well trained military. I think we underestimate the collective military power of the surrounding states and the innate hatred these states have for Israel.

 

[shart1780]

Collectively they may be able to destroy Israel, but these states seem to be banking on the idea that each other state will be there to support them if Israel decides to fight back in a big way, which seems dangerous to me.

 

[Judah]

Collectively they may be able to destroy Israel, but these states seem to be banking on the idea that each other state will be there to support them if Israel decides to fight back in a big way, which seems dangerous to me.

Collectively, these states can't do worth shit, as has been proven time and time again...'56, '67, and '73. Oh, and Israel has 'nukes, not to mention the best damn military and airforce of all other middle east countries combined.

 

[deep]

Collectively they may be able to destroy Israel,

maybe yes, maybe no

but Israel sure seems to be capable of self-destruction

 

[yolland]

It's all a bit too discomfitingly reminiscent of Israel's 1982-85 war with Lebanon. That war was also entered into with the goal of putting an end to (PLO) raids and rocket attacks staged from south Lebanon, and it also widened almost immediately into a broader conflict, involving the bombing of Beirut, the military involvement of Syria, the further destabilization of the already fragile Lebanese government, the deaths of almost 18,000, and the emergence of Hezbollah out of a loose federation of Shiite groups focused on driving Israel from south Lebanon (Hezbollah is not a Palestinian group). And it did not succeed in decisively curbing PLO militancy as hoped. Militarily speaking--not an encouraging precedent.

On the other hand, politically speaking, melon's point is hard to get around. A failed state is probably the worst kind of enemy to have, certainly worse than any one armed faction that takes root in it, because as soon as one is taken out, another will rise in its place. It cannot control its own armies, it cannot resist outside manipulation and, as such, it cannot hope to keep any treaty promises it might make, to anyone. Of course the people who suffer most from this are its own citizens.

Isn't the land Israel is currently based on land that "God"gave to his chosen people.

You might want to take a look at the Wikipedia entry on Zionism. Zionism is first and foremost a spinoff of 19th-century European nationalist thought, not a Bible-based ideology, and it gained widespread international support among Jews only following the Holocaust, and the subsequent failure of the Allies to provide an internal solution for the resulting refugee crisis of Central and East European Jews who could not be safely repatriated.

 

[AliEnvy]

Originally posted by nbcrusader Besides, Hezbollah (likely at Iran’s direction) is merely taking the attention away from Iran’s continued nuclear development.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it is Iran's pre-G8 summit posturing to force their nuclear deal close to the top of the agenda and (attempt to) control some of the terms in their favour (with 2 Israeli hostage soldiers among the cards).

 

[Irvine511]

On the other hand, politically speaking, melon's point is hard to get around. A failed state is probably the worst kind of enemy to have, certainly worse than any one armed faction that takes root in it, because as soon as one is taken out, another will rise in its place. It cannot control its own armies, it cannot resist outside manipulation and, as such, it cannot hope to keep any treaty promises it might make, to anyone. Of course the people who suffer most from this are its own citizens.

all too true, and it seems as if the Middle East can welcome yet another failed state -- Iraq!

 

[joyfulgirl]

It's all a bit too discomfitingly reminiscent of Israel's 1982-85 war with Lebanon.

Exactly what I was thinking.

The whole thing is so upsetting.

 

[Irvine511]

Somehow, I knew this was Israel’s fault

i've been thinking about this statement for a bit, and as someone who does believe in Israel's right to exist and defend itself while at the same time acknowledging that it often goes to absurd lengths to do so, i think it's fair to say that it's in Israel's long-term interest to refrain from polarizing the region more than necessary for its self-defense.

the actions of the past few days do seem, at this point, to be out of proportion to the events that precipitated them.

 

[verte76]

i've been thinking about this statement for a bit, and as someone who does believe in Israel's right to exist and defend itself while at the same time acknowledging that it often goes to absurd lengths to do so, i think it's fair to say that it's in Israel's long-term interest to refrain from polarizing the region more than necessary for its self-defense.

the actions of the past few days do seem, at this point, to be out of proportion to the events that precipitated them.

Well said.

 

[AliEnvy]

Originally posted by Irvine511 the actions of the past few days do seem, at this point, to be out of proportion to the events that precipitated them.

Perhaps because at stake is the UN deal regarding nuclear development in Iran...this is Israel sending a strong message to the UN (and US) that they will not take kindly to concessions in Iran's favour.

Am I the only one here on that wavelength? lol

 

[Irvine511]

Perhaps because at stake is the UN deal regarding nuclear development in Iran...this is Israel sending a strong message to the UN (and US) that they will not take kindly to concessions in Iran's favour.

Am I the only one here on that wavelength? lol

actually, i posted in another thread about Iran's involvement and how it is now pulling the strings in the Middle East and is as dangerous as Saddam ever was.

i'm quite certain that Israel is well aware of how powerful and defiant Iran has become in recent years.