MERGED: 2nd U.S. Presidential Debate

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sharky said:
Kerry seemed regal and presidential, Bush's interruptions of Charlie seemed lilke something the pushy kid on the playground would do. You are right -- bush got a bigger bounce but he had alot more ground to make up after last week than Kerry. If Kerry stayed even tonight, it would be considered a victory.

On that note, I just want to apologize to our Canadian friends. I grew up in Detroit, love watching hockey and am pissed about this NHL lockout. That being said, I don't think Canada is a third-world nation and I believe your drugs are just fine. Wait...I believe your prescription drugs are safe. That's better.

I just wanted to post and say I agree with everything - everything ;) in this post. :yes:
 
Wow you guys certainly do a good job. If I had not watched the debate and only read this then I might be worried. But I'm not. If you remember, Mr. Edwards was ahead in all of those non-scientific polls after his debate, when I think most reasonable people believe that he either lost or at least tied. And most networks agree with that. Bush did heads and tails better then last time. Kerry didn't answer how he was going to pay for a 2.2 trillion dollar spending plan without raising anyone's taxes except people over 200,000. He also claims that he will add 40,000 active troops to our military without explaining how he will do that. He continues to distort the lost jobs number. Kerry says 1.6 million. Those are private sector job losses. With the gains in the private sector--the number is actually about half of what Kerry is saying it is at around 821,000 according to the latest jobs report. Kerry now says that he supports the no child left behind act--just that it was underfunded. The basis of that act is testing and accountability for the schools and the children. He has also said too much emphasis is placed on tests for measuring student achievement and that additional factors, such as attendance and parental satisfaction, should be considered. Also that Bush owns a timber company--one of the light moments in the debate. He also said that he fixed medicare in the senate in 1997. I know alot of people that disagree with him like many of his colleagues considering Bush's medicare bill had to pass through the senate to be approved. He never answered Bush's charges of him being absent for certain votes that he says he is against but was not there to vote for. Bush said that if Kerry were president, Saddam Hussein "would still be in power." Kerry replied: "Not necessarily be in power ..." Kerry once again dimished the sacrifices of our allies by saying that he was "not going to go alone like this president did" in Iraq.
 
diamond said:
how u been Jofo?:)

db9

ok man...I've gone from supporting the war in Iraq in early 2003 to realizing it was a huge mistake now in 2004.
Why?
well, for one thing I realized that I was tricked by the Bush administration into believing that Saddam was gonna hand over some WMD's to bin laden's people so that they could set them off in Times Square. Guess what? That couldn't happen because he did't have any. I don't like being tricked, certainly not being tricked into believing something out of fear. and that's exactly what they're still doing: telling us to be afraid, and that they're the only ones who can protect us.
nonsense.
I could go on a long time about this, but what's the point?
I'm sure STING2 is gonna come in here any minute with a bunch of numbers and UN resolutions refuting everything.

I'll make one thing clear though: I'm an American, proud to be one, and think we've got the wrong guy in charge. will John Kerry do better? I don't know, but I'm willing to try.
I think at least he'll restore some respect to America in the eyes of the rest of the world....which we've lost under the current president.

oh, and you know what sucks? last night after the debate I went to a bar with 2 friends of mine who both work for Fox news; I said "what's going on?" one of them said "watched bush kick Kerry's ass". I was like

:|
"let me out of the car". but I stayed and listened to them, and they are brainwashed by Fox. It's a shame, because they're really good people. oh well.
 
JOFO said:



I'll make one thing clear though: I'm an American, proud to be one, .



but I stayed and listened to them, and they are brainwashed by Fox. .

I agree w/this one boss.

Like all news presentations always astutely consider the source. They all claim to be objective but are not.
Not CNN
Not Fox

and as we all just found out certainly not Mr Rather.

Your friend
diamond
theguyinthepajamas:D
 
anitram,
That was a defining moment of the debate.

Most Americans liked the Pres asserting himself. At that moment he took control of the room.

Most Americans loved it. Not all, most mind you.:)

Most ppl outside of America didn't like Bush asserting himself.

It is where youre perspective is.

db9
 
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All the networks are still calling it a Kerry win, except ABC - they're calling it a tie.

Edwards is still the winner over Cheney except on ABC - with a larger Rep response.
 
Overall
47 kerry

45 bush
however-
1 % of voters liked kerry pouting while bush asserted his bad self;)
7 % liked bush asserting his badself in a given moment

92% choose to stay neutral.

so anitram if u add up the
bush 45
plus 7% liking bush taking charge of the room..
Bush wins;)

db9
 
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anitram said:


Is that why Gallup, the HOLY POLL reveals that Independents think 53-37 that Kerry won last night?

You forgot to mention that the Gallup poll sampled more Republicans than Dems, and Kerry still came out barely ahead.

In any case, we really should get over our obsession with polls. They are getting less reliable and do not sample cell phone users, who are in large part younger voters.
 
ladywithspinninghead said:


That's because all the Republicans are all on the "other" mysterious Internet Bush referred to tonight ("Internets")

:lmao:
 
anitram said:
My mother is a Canadian, of political centre, and she has never even heard Kerry speak before (she obviously has heard Bush). She watched tonight for half an hour and said, "who would vote for Bush?" She is a professional consultant and public speaker and her opinion is that Bush is extremely unhinged and unprepared, whereas Kerry looks dignified, likeable and presidential.

0-2 indeed.

Your mother is a very wise woman!
 
diamond said:
anitram,
That was a defining moment of the debate.

Most Americans liked the Pres asserting himself. At that moment he took control of the room.

Most Americans loved it. Not all, most mind you.:)

Most ppl outside of America didn't like Bush asserting himself.

It is where youre perspective is.

db9

I thought he was an ass.
 
Just wanted to go back to an earlier post from diamond that included, among Bush's accomplishments, lower interest rates and higher home ownership. These are not good things. Interest rates, and therefore mortgage rates, were waaaay low after the Fed dropped them to historic levels because the economy was so bad. The good news is that lower rates made it easier to own a house. The bad news is that if you weren't in the market before the recession, you couldn't afford to get a house at these rates. This is not a sign of a strong economy.

As for the 5.4% employment rate, as of yesterday, it has remained steady, not decreased, from Sept. 96,000 jobs were created last month, much lower than the 140,000 that economists were expecting. You need around 180,000 new jobs every month to keep up with the employment population increase. And the super duper tax cuts diamond mentioned, we did indeed receive -- Bush said we would be creating 600,000 new jobs a month with his tax cuts by this time. That's obvious not what's happening. If Bush wants to leave office with a net job increase, 850,000 new jobs need to be created between now and December. If that doesn't happen, which based on recent jobs data it won't, then Bush will be the first president since Hoover to have a net job loss. And don't give me any of that crap about 9/11. As much as that hurt our economy, a year after the attacks fewer jobs were lost due to terrorist attacks than due to corporate America including Bush's friend Ken Lay and his Enron going belly up and taking Arther Andersen with it and the corruption at WorldCom.

One of the few things that pisses me off about Kerry is that he hasn't nailed Bush with these numbers yet. I hope he does so at the next debate. They are pretty damning.
 
sharky said:
Just wanted to go back to an earlier post from diamond that included, among Bush's accomplishments, lower interest rates and higher home ownership. These are not good things. Interest rates, and therefore mortgage rates, were waaaay low after the Fed dropped them to historic levels because the economy was so bad. The good news is that lower rates made it easier to own a house. The bad news is that if you weren't in the market before the recession, you couldn't afford to get a house at these rates. This is not a sign of a strong economy.

As for the 5.4% employment rate, as of yesterday, it has remained steady, not decreased, from Sept. 96,000 jobs were created last month, much lower than the 140,000 that economists were expecting. You need around 180,000 new jobs every month to keep up with the employment population increase. And the super duper tax cuts diamond mentioned, we did indeed receive -- Bush said we would be creating 600,000 new jobs a month with his tax cuts by this time. That's obvious not what's happening. If Bush wants to leave office with a net job increase, 850,000 new jobs need to be created between now and December. If that doesn't happen, which based on recent jobs data it won't, then Bush will be the first president since Hoover to have a net job loss. And don't give me any of that crap about 9/11. As much as that hurt our economy, a year after the attacks fewer jobs were lost due to terrorist attacks than due to corporate America including Bush's friend Ken Lay and his Enron going belly up and taking Arther Andersen with it and the corruption at WorldCom.

One of the few things that pisses me off about Kerry is that he hasn't nailed Bush with these numbers yet. I hope he does so at the next debate. They are pretty damning.

I hope your not going to ignore the fact that 2 million jobs have been created over the past 13 months. In addition, the trend in unemployment is downward. 5.4% unemployment is lower than the average unemployment rate in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, and it is still dropping. If Kerry gets elected, there will be very little for him to do on the economic front except to maintain the growth and low unemployment that Bush has handed him. Anything that Kerry could do to effect the economy won't be felt until August of next year, and by then unemployment will be down near 4.5%, and people will be probably be worried about a labor shortage.
 
I'd just like to say that I too found Bush's reaction to the moderator really quite amusing. Some people say its Bush asserting himself, others say its him flipping out.

Unsurprisingly, I'd have to agree with the latter. He looked like an overzealous juvenile with a big mouth and an impatient nerve, without the slightest regard for the rules.

Still, it was good seeing him in what appears to be his true colours.

Ant.
 
However, I think they both tied. Bush did a lot better than he did in the first debate, and Kerry, though I think he did pretty well in the second half, was weak in the first when a few asked him how 'he' would do better. During the first half he relied too much on criticism, and his argument became repetitive, something I deplore in any candidate.

Bush became stronger as the debate went on... though his little tantrum was not at all a high point.

Ant.
 
drivemytrabant said:
Polls on who won the 2nd Presidential debate(as current 2:00 EST 10/09/04)

Gallup
Kerry 47
Bush 45

CNN
Kerry 56
Bush 42

FoxNews
Kerry 45
Bush 54

MSNBC
Kerry 63
Bush 37

Gee, Fox News, surprise there...
 
Interested, the first Fox poll I saw, right after the debate, had Kerry just ahead. LOL.

Diamond, what Bush did was not manly. Men behave like adults. How do you demonstrate being "in control of the room" by losing control? Is that the kind of diplomacy he used to coalition build? No wonder no one wanted to come play.....

SD
 
Well he got his message across and in the end that is all that matters, it was obvious from the outset that Kerry would win the debates on style but the question is can he maintain the lead without shooting himself in the foot on content (thinking Global Test on US power).
 
Sherry Darling said:
Interested, the first Fox poll I saw, right after the debate, had Kerry just ahead. LOL.

Diamond, what Bush did was not manly. Men behave like adults. How do you demonstrate being "in control of the room" by losing control? Is that the kind of diplomacy he used to coalition build? No wonder no one wanted to come play.....

SD
Sherry,
What Bush did was similar to what Reagan did in a debate about 25 years ago.

Not quite with the same style becuz no one is Reagan however it was clearly reminiscant of the Reangan momment.

You probably don't remember because you were only a kindergarter at the time.;)

And what was that moment?

The moderator was trying to cut Reagan off and Reagan told the moderator to quiet down that he was going to answer a question, the moderator persisted telling Reagan that he had the microphne, Regan became forceful put the moderator in his place telling the moderator that he actually paid for the microphone taking charge of the room as the moderator sank into obscurity.

Bush had that moment to many Americans last night.:)

Ask your older Republican friends or realitives about that one.:)

db9
 
Well, I know this entire board is full of Kerry bias, as do you, so I'll take most of the opionions on here with a pinch of salt.

That said, I thought they both debated fine. I can't really say who I believe won, because it was so close!!

I'm starting to think these debates are a little pointless though. Come on, both candidates know how to make themselves look right. They can throw a bunch of statistics out there that most of us don't really understand and make themselves look right. Most of the time I end up thinking "ok... they both seem to have good plans...". I think it's just about the personalities really. How they talk, their use of language, their facial expressions. I think that's really stupid. If someone slurs their words it has no affect on how good of a president they'll be... it's completely stupid. People are so shallow these days.
 
What about a defective thinking process?


What about a stubbornness and arrogance that causes one to not weight new information objectively,
that does not support your agenda?
 
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