Men can have abortions too

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AliEnvy

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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060307.wembryos0307/BNStory/International/home


British woman denied right to use frozen embryos

Associated Press

Strasbourg, France — The European Court of Human Rights ruled Tuesday that a British woman has no right to use frozen embryos to have a baby without permission from the man who provided the sperm.

The court upheld a British law that stipulates consent from both parents is needed at every stage of the in vitro fertilization process, as well as for the storage and implantation of the fertilized eggs.

Natalie Evans, 34, had filed the case, claiming the British law breached her rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. She said her right to privacy and family life and the embryo's right to life were being violated by the decision of her former fiancé, Howard Johnston, to withdraw his permission for use of his sperm. She also had argued his attempt to block her having the baby was discriminatory.

Ms. Evans was left infertile after being treated for a precancerous condition, but in 2001, prior to the removal of her ovaries, six of her eggs were fertilized by Mr. Johnston's sperm through in vitro fertilization.

The couple then split up, and Mr. Johnston withdrew his consent for her to use the embryos. Ms. Evans took him to British court, but judges there rejected her legal appeals to implant an embryo, saying consent from both partners was needed and ordering the destruction of the embryos.

The European court -- based in Strasbourg, France -- requested a stay of the destruction order in February, 2005, while it considered Evans' appeal.

The court said Tuesday it was up to national law to define when the right to life began, and that under British law an embryo does not have independent rights or interests.

The court said it had sympathy for Ms. Evans' plight, but ruled that Mr. Johnston's withdrawal of consent for the use of his sperm did not violate her right to family life as stipulated in Europe's human rights convention.

The court requested that the British government ensure the embryos are not destroyed, in case Ms. Evans appeals the case further.

Mr. Johnston said he found it hard to live with the attention the case has generated and felt relieved the court ruled in his favour.

“The key thing for me was just to be able to decide when and if I start a family. So, that's been the basis for it,” he told journalists in Cheltenham, England.
 
The case raises a myriad of issues - the analysis would vary depending on jurisdiction.

I wonder to what extent we will permit the contracting of such reproductive functions so that traditional presumptions under the law can be waived or altered.
 
nbcrusader said:
A hyperbolic headline.

The man is execising control over the embyos leading to their destruction.

I understand that...

prior to the removal of her ovaries, six of her eggs were fertilized by Mr. Johnston's sperm through in vitro fertilization.

But what about the other 5 fertilized eggs, if she would have been able to have a baby with one, would these have automatically been abortions as well? I think we're really confusing the issue by calling it abortion.
 
:wave: Hi BVS, good to see you back.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm guessing perhaps AliEnvy made the analogy because here is a case of a man being allowed to not have a child he doesn't want on the grounds that control over his reproductive capacities ultimately belongs to him and him alone, even once an embryo already exists.
 
fertilized eggs / embryo

destruction is not abortion


there are some 400,000 fertilized eggs frozen in the U. S. alone and most of them will be eventually destroyed and disposed of as medical waste.

if a man has a vasectomy it is not abortion
 
yolland said:
:wave: Hi BVS, good to see you back.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm guessing perhaps AliEnvy made the analogy because here is a case of a man being allowed to not have a child he doesn't want on the grounds that control over his reproductive capacities ultimately belongs to him and him alone, even once an embryo already exists.

Hello, and thanks.

that control over his reproductive capacities ultimately belongs to him and him alone

I can see this analogy. Interesting.
 
Thinking practically, even if you consider the destruction of frozen embryos to be murder, the sheer number of them makes it impossible for them ever to come to term. Ever.

Now considering how all these discarded embryos could be used for stem cell research, rather than fertilizing eggs in a laboratory for the expressed purpose of destroying them, I find it quite wasteful that we are just destroying these frozen embryos without using them for what has the potential for good.

Melon
 
melon said:
Thinking practically, even if you consider the destruction of frozen embryos to be murder.

there is no logic or sense in that statement

an embryo that is not implanted in a live womb with a constant nourishment source
has no chance of ever being a human being.

you might as well call people in cryonic suspension live people
because some day they could be brought to life
 
deep said:
there is no logic or sense in that statement

Be that as it may, we still have to deal with the fact that many religions define "life" as starting at the moment of conception. As such, it is something that must be dealt with on an ethical level, even if not at a scientific level.

Melon
 
melon said:


Be that as it may, we still have to deal with the fact that many religions define "life" as starting at the moment of conception. As such, it is something that must be dealt with on an ethical level, even if not at a scientific level.

Melon

I can not agree



"the fact that many religions define "life" as starting at the moment of conception."


Would you say the same for

"the fact that many religions define "homosexuality" as against nature, abnormal and always wrong."


"as something that must be dealt with on an ethical level"


some religious definitions/beliefs are just plain wrong


engaging in thoughtful discussion with people about irrational beliefs will lead to tolerance for female circumcism and other quack ideas/ beliefs.

stating that there is no basis in fact or science to support those beliefs is a better approach in my opinion
 
;) Still rhapsodizing about F for Fake, melon?

While meanwhile, deep's comment about cryogenics is giving me far less lofty visions of Woody Allen's Sleeper...
 
deep said:
Would you say the same for

"the fact that many religions define "homosexuality" as against nature, abnormal and always wrong."

Whatever I might be inclined to want to say to that statement, it is still something I have to deal with, whether I like it or not; hence why I repeat myself about 10,000 times refuting those same old Biblical passages, despite coming from a religious tradition that outright rejects Biblical fundamentalism.

To achieve a means to an end, sometimes you have to argue on someone else's terms, even if you disagree with them.

Melon
 
yolland said:
This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm guessing perhaps AliEnvy made the analogy because here is a case of a man being allowed to not have a child he doesn't want on the grounds that control over his reproductive capacities ultimately belongs to him and him alone, even once an embryo already exists.

Yes...and I couldn't resist the Justinesque caption sans exclamation point. :wink:

First to catch up, IVF requires more than one embryo to be used at time and has a low success rate so having a six-pack on ice doesn't guarantee that even one child may eventually be born...only the possibility.

I agree that his permission should be required by his ex as it would be required for the embryos to be donated to an infertile couple or to research.

But it reminded me about cases in the 80s in Montreal where 2 men were granted injunctions to stop their girlfriends from having abortions...federal Supreme Court shot them down pretty quickly.

Are there people really cryogenically frozen? I thought that was just science fiction lol.
 
yep there are people who pay to be cryogenically frozen, quite a few actually. There is no way to reanimate them though with current technology (even if they were in perfect health when frozen). When the liquid inside the cells freezes the crystals damage the cells. So people are paying a lot of money in hopes that A) we'll find a cure for whatever they died from and B) that we'll find a way to repair the massive tissue damage that freezing causes :wink:
 
another interesting issue re men and pregnancy

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11731580/

"NEW YORK - Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men’s rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit — nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men — to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend’s daughter. The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution’s equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose."
 
Very interesting case.

I'm not sure a male's right to completely disassociate himself from an unintended pregnancy will fly (established legal obligations stem from the child's rights), various aspects of this responsibility should be examined.

But that issue is undermined by the basic contention that an unborn child is "not life".
 
nbcrusader said:

But that issue is undermined by the basic contention that an unborn child is "not life".

Exactly. Maybe a man should be able to relinquish parental rights (outside marriage) up to the same point in pregnancy that a woman can.

But then he'd have to know about it.

Honey, I'm pregnant! becomes a notarized doctor's note by registered mail.

:scratch:
 
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