Mel Gibson To Produce Holocaust Miniseries

[Justin24]

Theological event?!? Ummm Jesus was whipped, had thorn cross put on his head and speared, how is that not accurat?

 

[Muggsy]

So if you asked any art student if those scenes are homo erotic they would say yes, or asked a professor?

Well... I was an art student when I saw that movie... and I confess that I had to close my eyes and stop the DVD in the flagelation scenes. I didn't see the homoerotic references (I also didn't know much about mel gibson, the things about him I'm reading here are new for me) but I could felt that "someone" was enjoying those escenes, I mean, the suffering of a human (God) being was being showed as an spectacle of blood and pain. I was aware of how much Jesus suffered before his death, but that movie was like a freak show....

 

[A_Wanderer]

Can you produce historical documentation from the Romans of Jesus being crucified? Can you give me some reportage that wasn't written well after the fact from second and third hand sources to reconstruct what happened - would it correlate? There were agendas driving the documentation and the historicity of the bible is very questionable; not least in this supposed person Jesus being brought back to life, a pretty rare event for the times (if it is to be belived ~ which it shouldn't without solid evidence).

The crucifiction and ressurection are very important parts of Christian theology in general and for Gibsons sect of Catholicism especially important (seeing how it is intent on maintaining the status quo circa the Holy Roman Empire)

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Maybe people could talk about those subjects and The Passion in another thread. I wanted to talk about his anti-Semitism, the miniseries, if he should be boycotted, etc. Sorry it's distracting, as I think sula already mentioned.

Healing what's left of his career? Why didn't have have a meeting like that years ago? I really hope he is serious about truly changing his beliefs and getting in touch with reality. I always wonder how and how much someone with those expressed beliefs can truly change. Too bad he seemingly wants to change only because he was caught and publicly outed as an anti-Semite.

(Reuters)Mel Gibson on Tuesday apologized for making anti-Semitic remarks after his recent arrest for drunken driving and asked to meet with members of the Jewish community to begin a "path for healing."

"There is no excuse, nor should there be any tolerance, for anyone who thinks or expresses any kind of anti-Semitic remark," Gibson said in a statement.

"I want to apologize specifically to everyone in the Jewish community for the vitriolic and harmful words that I said to a law enforcement officer the night I was arrested," he added.

Gibson, who directed 2004's blockbuster movie "The Passion of The Christ" about the last hours of the life of Jesus, was caught speeding in his car in the early morning last Friday, and he went on a rant in which he is widely reported to have said "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world."..

But it has been the anti-Semitic remarks that have raised the biggest outcry from members of the Jewish community in and out of Hollywood because before "Passion," the Oscar-winning director of "Braveheart" and star of the "Lethal Weapon" movies denied he or the movie were anti-Semitic.

His statement on Tuesday sought a meeting with Jewish community leaders in which he could explain his actions.

"I'm not just asking for forgiveness. I would like to take it one step further, and meet with leaders in the Jewish community, with whom I can have a one-on-one discussion to discern the appropriate path for healing," Gibson said.

He said he has begun "an ongoing program of recovery," but admitted "I cannot do it alone."

"I am asking the Jewish community, whom I have personally offended, to help me on my journey through recovery," Gibson said.

 

[Justin24]

Can you produce historical documentation from the Romans of Jesus being crucified? Can you give me some reportage that wasn't written well after the fact from second and third hand sources to reconstruct what happened - would it correlate? There were agendas driving the documentation and the historicity of the bible is very questionable; not least in this supposed person Jesus being brought back to life, a pretty rare event for the times (if it is to be belived ~ which it shouldn't without solid evidence).

The crucifiction and ressurection are very important parts of Christian theology in general and for Gibsons sect of Catholicism especially important (seeing how it is intent on maintaining the status quo circa the Holy Roman Empire)

Only what I know from the Bible, I am at work, so I can't produce that evidence. Can you?

 

[A_Wanderer]

No I can't, but the burden of proof rests on those making the claims - it's not my job to try and prove a negative. It is a moot point, what I was getting to was that the film is not meant to be an accurate depiction of what supposedly occured, it is built of medieval passion plays (which are a record in European anti-semitism) but done with a decent budget and makeup department. In doing so Gibson has made a set of stylistic decisions as he should with artistic licence to convert it to the big screen, it just so happens those decisions and choices raise the ire of a group he has profusely objected to, well them and the Jews

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Uh, so now this is a debate about The Crucifixion? I'm sorry I ever bumped this thread

Here's Mel Gibson's statement

(CNN) -- "There is no excuse, nor should there be any tolerance, for anyone who thinks or expresses any kind of anti-Semitic remark. I want to apologize specifically to everyone in the Jewish community for the vitriolic and harmful words that I said to a law enforcement officer the night I was arrested on a DUI charge.

I am a public person, and when I say something, either articulated and thought out, or blurted out in a moment of insanity, my words carry weight in the public arena. As a result, I must assume personal responsibility for my words and apologize directly to those who have been hurt and offended by those words.

The tenets of what I profess to believe necessitate that I exercise charity and tolerance as a way of life. Every human being is God's child, and if I wish to honor my God I have to honor his children. But please know from my heart that I am not an anti-Semite. I am not a bigot. Hatred of any kind goes against my faith.

I'm not just asking for forgiveness. I would like to take it one step further, and meet with leaders in the Jewish community, with whom I can have a one on one discussion to discern the appropriate path for healing.

I have begun an ongoing program of recovery and what I am now realizing is that I cannot do it alone. I am in the process of understanding where those vicious words came from during that drunken display, and I am asking the Jewish community, whom I have personally offended, to help me on my journey through recovery. Again, I am reaching out to the Jewish community for its help. I know there will be many in that community who will want nothing to do with me, and that would be understandable. But I pray that that door is not forever closed.

This is not about a film. Nor is it about artistic license. This is about real life and recognizing the consequences hurtful words can have. It's about existing in harmony in a world that seems to have gone mad.

 

[Irvine511]

Well you and Irvine may find it Homo Erotic, but I don't. Would you find Saving Private Ryan Homo erotic with soldiers being shot up or in Glory when Denzel is being flogged for stealing a pair of shoes?

Justin, read this thread: http://forum.interference.com/showt...um&pagenumber=2

i think you'll find some interesting information in there. look for great appearances by joyfulgirl and Yolland.

so let's let this lie and return to the original intent of the thread.

though i do think it's impossible to separate Gibson's DUI and behavior from the films he's directed, and both are worthy of discussion.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Good PR (better than Tom Cruises lack of damage control), but the mask slipped and try as he may it will always be there.

 

[Justin24]

I agree I started a new thread.

 

[BVS]

I have a hard time accepting alcoholism or being drunk as his excuse for his comments.

Although I take alcoholism as a serious disease, I've never found it to make people just blurt out things they don't believe on some conscious or subconscious level.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The Romans were onto that a long ago, In Vino Veritas

 

[Justin24]

How Does It Affect the Body?
Alcohol is a depressant, which means it slows the function of the central nervous system. Alcohol actually blocks some of the messages trying to get to the brain. This alters a person's perceptions, emotions, movement, vision, and hearing.

In very small amounts, alcohol can help a person feel more relaxed or less anxious. More alcohol causes greater changes in the brain, resulting in intoxication. People who have overused alcohol may stagger, lose their coordination, and slur their speech. They will probably be confused and disoriented. Depending on the person, intoxication can make someone very friendly and talkative or very aggressive and angry. Reaction times are slowed dramatically - which is why people are told not to drink and drive. People who are intoxicated may think they're moving properly when they're not. They may act totally out of character.

http://kidshealth.org/teen/drug_alcohol/alcohol/alcohol.html

 

[Muggsy]

I have a hard time accepting alcoholism or being drunk as his excuse for his comments.

Although I take alcoholism as a serious disease, I've never found it to make people just blurt out things they don't believe on some conscious or subconscious level.

yeah.... , Insulting jewishs is not a common sign of being drunk.

 

[Keebler884]

ABC pulls Mel Gibson Holocaust miniseries
Tue Aug 01,11:54 AM ET

The ABC television network said on Tuesday that it has pulled a miniseries about the Holocaust it was developing with Mel Gibson's production company.

The move came after Gibson was arrested on suspicion of drunken driving early on Friday and was reported to have launched into a tirade against Jews, asking the arresting officer if he was a Jew and blaming the Jews for starting all wars.

The actor, who holds strong conservative Catholic religious and political views and whose father is a Holocaust denier, apologized on Saturday and has entered a rehabilitation program to treat alcoholism.

But the incident has raised questions about the future of projects Gibson and his Icon Productions company are working on.

A spokeswoman for ABC, which is owned by Walt Disney Co., said an ABC television miniseries based on a memoir about a Dutch Jew during World War II would not go ahead.

"Given that it has been nearly two years and we have yet to see the first draft of a script, we have decided to no longer pursue this project with Icon," said spokeswoman Hope Hartland.

ABC did not give any further reason for its decision to drop the project and Hartland made no comment when asked if the decision was linked to Gibson's behavior at the weekend.

Disney's movie studio arm still plans to release Gibson's self-financed Mayan-language movie "Apocalypto" on December 8, Hollywood's trade papers reported.

The Web site www.slate.com quoted Walt Disney Studios President Oren Aviv as saying he accepted Gibson's apology.

 

[deep]

Can you produce historical documentation from the Romans of Jesus being crucified? Can you give me some reportage that wasn't written well after the fact from second and third hand sources to reconstruct what happened - would it correlate? There were agendas driving the documentation and the historicity of the bible is very questionable; not least in this supposed person Jesus being brought back to life, a pretty rare event for the times (if it is to be belived ~ which it shouldn't without solid evidence).

The crucifiction and ressurection are very important parts of Christian theology in general and for Gibsons sect of Catholicism especially important (seeing how it is intent on maintaining the status quo circa the Holy Roman Empire)

these are the questions a person without any vested interests in the answer might ask


the Lazarus story is plausible
that he appeared dead
was placed in a tomb

Jesus arrived
and Lazarus came back to life
and lived the rest of his natural life



we have had dead people in morgues, at the point of embalming,
come back to life
and live the rest of their natural lives

 

[BVS]

http://kidshealth.org/teen/drug_alcohol/alcohol/alcohol.html

Why did you post this?

 

[deep]

Public Service Announcement

 

[Justin24]

Why did you post this?

I have a hard time accepting alcoholism or being drunk as his excuse for his comments.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Yes indeed, why can't he? Maybe he needs to go back to remedial grade school history class.

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/

"He plays the "recovery" card. If Gibson had merely had a DUI and needed help, this would be a non-issue. It would be a non-story. I'm not interested in hounding human beings for their personal demons. We all have them. We have all behaved in ways we regret at times. I sure have. People with addictions struggle every day for sobriety in ways everyone should support. Similarly, as someone with intimate understanding of bi-polar disorder (my mother has endured this affliction for decades), I can only say that anyone suffering from that awful disease merits our love, support and medical help. This applies to Gibson as much as anyone. But that is not the issue here. The issue is his anti-Semitism, his marketing of a profoundly anti-Semitic movie, and, above all, his refusal to disavow his father's own Holocaust denial. Jewish leaders should refuse to meet with him until he publicly acknowledges the historical fact of the Shoah. He need not disown his father. He need simply state that he disagrees with him in every respect about the Holocaust. Simple, really. So why can Gibson still not say the only words that would matter?"

 

[80sU2isBest]

This DUI arrest of Gibson really saddened me. Not mainly because of the DUI arrest, but because of the comments he made about Jews. I know that some people might say "He was drunk; he didn't really mean it", but I can't buy that. I realize that a person who is drunk might do things he normally wouldn't do, because his relaxation could cause loss of inhibitions. However, could being drunk cause someone to say things like this, if it weren't there somewhere in his heart already? I don't think so.

This latets bit of news, that he wants to change his beliefs, makes me think that possibly these beliefs were buried deep down, planted there by years of exposure to his father's anti-semitism. Maybe he held these views deep down, but didn't approve of them and was fighting them. Maybe he's been in denial this entire time. If that's the case, it's a blessing in disguise that he got caught DUI so that he would be forced to face those beliefs and do something about putting and end to them.

 

[BVS]

yeah.... , Insulting jewishs is not a common sign of being drunk.

Well it would be if you were anti-semetic, and that's the point I'm trying to make.

For example, I'm not going to say I think U2 is a worthless band just because I'm drunk.

Alcohol usually lowers the inhibitions, so you may say things you wouldn't normally say but they are usually thought and feelings that you already have, even at a subconscious level. Even if alcohol makes you an angry drunk and you say something "you don't mean" it's usually something you are feeling, it may only be for that brief moment of unclearity but you are feeling it.

So I have to honestly question Mel's true feelings on the subject.

 

[BVS]

Justin you didn't quote the rest of my comment. I had a feeling you posted that due to my statement, hopefully I clarified above.

 

[deep]

This DUI arrest of Gibson really saddened me. Not mainly because of the DUI arrest, but because of the comments he made about Jews. I know that some people might say "He was drunk; he didn't really mean it", but I can't buy that. I realize that a person who is drunk might do things he normally wouldn't do, because his relaxation could cause loss of inhibitions. However, could being drunk cause someone to say things like this, if it weren't there somewhere in his heart already? I don't think so.

I said about the same thing over in the Zoo fourm

Originally posted by elevation2u
I though the comments were made by his dad?

somewhat correct

that is probably
where they originated

if a person holds a belief
but does not speak it
sooner or later it may slip out



i am dealing with this myself
in conversations with friends

(because I live in such a conservative, 90% plus white area)

i often hear jokes or remarks that have racists, anti-gay, immigrant bashing, anti-Semite, and even sexists overtones

i no longer just go along,

if it is not part of my sub-conscious
it can't slip out by accident

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I realize that a person who is drunk might do things he normally wouldn't do, because his relaxation could cause loss of inhibitions. However, could being drunk cause someone to say things like this, if it weren't there somewhere in his heart already? I don't think so.
.

I don't think so either, I've never known anyone who was drunk to blurt out racist, sexist, homophobic, or anti-Semitic comments unless they actually held those beliefs when sober. To use being drunk as an excuse is just that, an excuse.

I want to believe Mel wants to change, but he can say a million times that he is not an anti-Semite- it all amounts to a hill of beans unless he renounces his father's statements and acknowledges the fact and reality of the Holocaust. And unless he educates himself about the Jewish faith, a true education-not one that is spun in the way he wishes to see things.

No matter how much he loves his father, and no matter what the dynamics of their relationship are, the time has come for Mel to make a decision. I was exposed to racism and anti-Semitism when I was a child, from a grandparent. It made such an impact on me as a child that I knew from an early age how revolted I was by that, and that I believed the exact opposite. I made a decision to renounce all of it and that grandparent. Some things are still more important than a family relationship, as difficult and painful as that can be to face.

 

[deep]

here are some opinions on the subject

keep in mind, Gibson has not denied, or excused his behavior

others may try to do so.

Was It Alcohol or Anti-Semitism Talking? Doctors Disagree
Doctors disagree on whether Mel Gibson's alleged comments reflected actual beliefs.
By Thomas H. Maugh II
Times Staff Writer

August 1, 2006

Behavior experts were split Monday on whether the alleged anti-Semitic comments of Mel Gibson were a reflection of his beliefs or simply gibberish induced by intoxication — the alcohol talking, in other words.

Remarks such as those Gibson is alleged to have made are "not a product of alcohol," said Dr. Samuel Barondes, Robertson professor of psychology and neurobiology at UC San Francisco. The content of any comments is in a person's head, "in his opinion structure."

Others, however, argue that gross intoxication can lead to a free association of ideas that are unrelated to an individual's true character.

"Basically, the person talks gibberish … and can behave in a very bizarre way," said Dr. Bankole Johnson, chairman of psychiatric medicine at the University of Virginia.

"They might not even be certain of what they are saying. They don't understand what they are saying, and they don't mean what they are saying," Johnson said.

That argument has persisted in the profession for many years and is unlikely to be resolved anytime soon, experts said.

"I would imagine that both options are possible," said Dr. Steven Sussman, a professor of preventive medicine and psychology at USC. "I am not sure that anyone knows for sure."

Psychologist Mark Fillmore of the University of Kentucky cites research that has shown that at moderate levels (the legal limit for driving is 0.08% in California), alcohol releases what are known as prepotent responses — beliefs, thoughts and actions that an individual would normally try to suppress.

"Alcohol doesn't produce new behaviors," he said. "It releases things that people believe or know…. It exaggerates the personality of the individual."

Gibson reportedly had a blood-alcohol level of about 0.12%, which would be well within the range at which such behaviors are manifested, Fillmore said.

But behavior may change if a person is simultaneously taking prescription drugs, such as tranquilizers or benzodiazepines. Such drugs would exacerbate the effects of the alcohol, making people act as if they were grossly intoxicated.

There is no shortage of expert opinions on the drinker who is highly intoxicated: Sussman cautioned that some drunks deliberately say things they don't believe in order to be belligerent or to produce a particular response.

Barondes said that some people when drunk become very aggressive and "sensitive to the smallest slight," and added: "They want to pick a fight with somebody."

At higher levels of intoxication, Fillmore said, drunks "have a breakdown of cognitive functioning. It's difficult for them even to recall what they believe."

In trying to tease apart which behavior is which, Johnson said, it is important to consider how the person behaved previously when drunk.

"If this behavior is new, if no one has witnessed it before," he said, then there is a good possibility it really is the alcohol talking.

But Barondes disagrees. "Alcohol," he said, "doesn't create the ability to say things like 'Jews are controlling the world.' "

 

[BAW]

I have several, actually quite a few, alcoholics in my family and my observations over the years have led me to believe that the things they say drunk are things they don't have the guts to say sober. And I'm not just talking about negative or hurtful things...my father for instance could never tell anyone how much loved them unless he had been drinking.

Likewise, an uncle called me every name in the book once when he was drunk and he meant it, he just didn't have the balls to say it sober.

So no, I don't believe that the anti-semitic comments just came from nowhere...they were obviously floating around in his subconscious and unfortunately for him, came out in a very public way. And like every other alcoholic who has done or said something stupid, he'll have to live with the fallout.

 

[deep]

This story is getting old.

1. Mel Gibson took responsibility for his actions.

2. He has not played the blame game.

3. He has 100% apologized, and taken measures to get help.


What more does anyone want?

What will be gained if his life is destoyed?


Do we just beat on people, as some bizarre public bonding,
like children on the playground, ganging up on one child?

 

[Irvine511]

What will be gained if his life is destoyed?

some of his more offensive films will be discredited. it also validates the charges of anti-Semitism that have been leveled at "The Passion."

i actually pity Gibson, sort of. i think he's genuinely talented -- not a great actor or director, but certainly competent. and i think the world does gain something by seeing a medieval vision of Christianity, sin, violence, bloodshed, and an all-around fire-and-brimstone philosophy writ large on the big screen.

i really do mean that. as repulsive as i found it, "The Passion" is also a fascinating psychological study.

 

[80sU2isBest]

here are some opinions on the subject
keep in mind, Gibson has not denied, or excused his behavior
others may try to do so.

That's true, and to me that's a good sign.

I had a friend who emailed another friend a long list of racial jokes - bad racial jokes. When my friend said that he doesn't appreciate those kinds of jokes, the guy said that he's not a racist, but was just blowing off steam after a bad day. But I don't believe it for a minute. When I have "bad days", I don't start making racist jokes - because racism appalls me. If racism appalled him, he wouldn't have made those jokes. I no longer wish to hang around thue guy and that is one of the reasons.

That guy made an excuse; he never owned up to his racism. Mel is making no excuses. To me that is a sign that he is deeply ashamed - not that he got caught but that he holds those beliefs.