McCain was not tortured

[Boston01]

I should say 'We aim to please, Father!' ... that show is brilliant!

 

[MadelynIris]

you should ask george bush and all the defenders of "enhanced interrogation techniques" if they think john mccain, a prisoner of war, was tortured.

I'm sending him an email now. I'll let you know what he says when he comes to visit Baghdad at Christmas -- we'll probably get Condi instead. Or maybe some pro wrestlers or playboy bunnies.

Either way, we'll be entertained.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I'm sending him an email now. I'll let you know what he says when he comes to visit Baghdad at Christmas -- we'll probably get Condi instead. Or maybe some pro wrestlers or playboy bunnies.

Either way, we'll be entertained.

Of all the topics currently discussed inthe election campaign this one is finally something that really has some importance and relevance.

 

[INDY500]

i quite agree. he was tortured.

you should email your president and tell him.

Bush knows John McCain was tortured.
Nancy Pelosi and Jay Rockefeller know as well as they have been briefed from day 1 on CIA operations. In fact, 95% of Americans know John McCain was tortured. The ones that seem to be having a problem with it (shame on you Andrew Sullivan) are the noodle-brained partisans that have spent the last 6 years calling every aggressive interrogation technique "torture," every anti-terrorism action "a war crime" or "assault on the constitution," to the point they now have obviously lost all ability to differentiate between:

The fact that John McCain was a uniformed soldier entitled to full Geneva Convention protections.
The detainees captured by Americans had no uniform, fought for no country and were unlawful combatants.
Have any uniformed soldiers been "tortured" in the past 6 years?

The fact that John McCain was interrogated for information but also beaten and tortured out of revenge and anger because he refused an early release, to meet with anti-war groups, sign false confessions or propaganda letters.
Only a few high-value al-Qaeda detainees have been harshly interrogated (including 3 that were waterboarded), but with the sole aim of stopping the future mass murder of innocent civilians.
Have any detainees (apart from the rogue actions of Abu Ghraib) been subject to torture out of sadism, revenge, punishment or to renounce their beliefs?

The fact that "guests" in Guantanamo receive three culturally sensitive meals a day, medical care, a Koran and time to pray five times a day.
The Hanoi Hilton... wasn't as accommodating.

To name but a few.

There's nothing wrong with holding America to the highest standards in regards to human dignity, but context people.

"All torture is wrong."
So much for liberal nuance.

 

[Irvine511]

"All torture is wrong."
So much for liberal nuance.

so much for conservative moral clarity and resistance to relativism.

i agree McCain was torture. he was tortured using the same tactics that Bush has authorized our forces to use. the uniforms matter not at all in a situation where someone has already been detained and is incarcerated.

shame on Bush for dragging us all down to his level.

you cannot make the argument that it's okay when you do it because you're better than they are, because when you do do it, you cease to be better than they are.

The fact that "guests" in Guantanamo receive three culturally sensitive meals a day, medical care, a Koran and time to pray five times a day.
The Hanoi Hilton... wasn't as accommodating.

this goes far, far beyond GitMo.

 

[anitram]

I wasn't aware of the fact that the legal and commonly understood definition of torture was conditional to the person being tortured being a soldier.

I suppose all civilians are out of luck then.

I am very disturbed by this sort of thinking. VERY.

 

[Irvine511]

I wasn't aware of the fact that the legal and commonly understood definition of torture was conditional to the person being tortured being a soldier.

I suppose all civilians are out of luck then.

I am very disturbed by this sort of thinking. VERY.

exceptionalism.

remind yourself of that.

exceptionalism.

we only torture for the right reasons.

 

[BVS]

Have any uniformed soldiers been "tortured" in the past 6 years?

So this is what makes the "moral superior" party sleep at night?

 

[Vincent Vega]

The fact that John McCain was a uniformed soldier entitled to full Geneva Convention protections.
The detainees captured by Americans had no uniform, fought for no country and were unlawful combatants.
Have any uniformed soldiers been "tortured" in the past 6 years?

Yes, second class people not worth of what the western world accepts as basics of humanity.

You should be careful, I guess you aren't wearing a uniform. Me neither.

 

[mobvok]

The fact that John McCain was interrogated for information but also beaten and tortured out of revenge and anger because he refused an early release, to meet with anti-war groups, sign false confessions or propaganda letters.

John McCain did in fact sign a false confession.

Which is the point of torture. People will say anything to get it to stop.

 

[Boston01]

It is often the case with military intelligence, that there is an intended direct and indirect result. The direct result of torture does not yield effective results. That has been acknowledged by the French, Germans, Japanese, United States and many others experienced in the trade. In many cases, that is not the intended purpose, especially in captive communal environments. The indirect result is intimidation and fear directed toward individuals within the community. The theory being weaker elements of the community will voluntarily produce information to avoid direct consequence. Far more information is gained via informers or collaborators. That information also tends to be mostly accurate.

For people charged with obtaining intelligence information, the challenge is always how to obtain the indirect results without applying direct techniques. As much as movies, TV and other media outlets portray the people charged with these tasks enjoying your jobs, it is something they have to do, not something they want to do. Of course, there are always those rogue elements who will enjoy the task.

I am not defending the practice. Ideally, it would not be necessary. I am just trying to lend perspective. I never knew a single person in the Army's MI branch who thought it was a good idea to take a prisoner and start beating them over the head for information, though that seems to be the popular portrayal.

 

[INDY500]

John McCain did in fact sign a false confession.

I'm aware of that.
What I'm not aware of is our country coercing any of these false confessions. What I have not seen, is FoxNews or any other outlet flaunting these documents to prove ours the just and virtuous cause.

Which is the point of torture. People will say anything to get it to stop.

True, which is why I only approve of it in isolated circumstances (grave urgency, information of high value about operations or terror plots), done only on captured terror suspects and only by trained professionals within prescribed parameters and with cabinet level or higher approval and with congressional oversight.)
Never on a uniformed soldier, or as punishment or to gain evidence for trial.

 

[INDY500]

so much for conservative moral clarity and resistance to relativism.

So all torture is bad. Ok, that's a noble position. But tell me, would you ever say killing is always bad? War, self-defense, murder... no difference, it's all killing and none of it can never be justified. Pacifism, that's noble right? But how practicle is it? How practicle is any absolutism?

How about this. How far does your terror prohibition go? Is solitary confinement "torture"? How about sodium pentathol? How about serving goat entrails for dinner two nights in a row? Or with stale dates?

 

[Irvine511]

I'm aware of that.
What I'm not aware of is our country coercing any of these false confessions. What I have not seen, is FoxNews or any other outlet flaunting these documents to prove ours the just and virtuous cause.

you are aware that most of what KSM said when he was waterboarded turned out to be false and enormous amounts of money are wasted, every day, chasing down leads extracted from tortured individuals. this seems to be a false confession as much as anything.

True, which is why I only approve of it in isolated circumstances (grave urgency, information of high value about operations or terror plots), done only on captured terror suspects and only by trained professionals within prescribed parameters and with cabinet level or higher approval and with congressional oversight.)
Never on a uniformed soldier, or as punishment or to gain evidence for trial.

once you let the sadists in, they take over.

 

[Irvine511]

So all torture is bad. Ok, that's a noble position. But tell me, would you ever say killing is always bad? War, self-defense, murder... no difference, it's all killing and none of it can never be justified. Pacifism, that's noble right? But how practicle is it? How practicle is any absolutism?

How about this. How far does your terror prohibition go? Is solitary confinement "torture"? How about sodium pentathol? How about serving goat entrails for dinner two nights in a row? Or with stale dates?

there are/were very clear rules about what was and what was not torture.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Is a ham sandwich torture?

 

[financeguy]

Is a ham sandwich torture?

If a Muslim or, for that matter, Jewish prisoner was forced to eat meats prohibited under his religion, then, yes, it probably is.

 

[INDY500]

exceptionalism.

remind yourself of that.

exceptionalism.

we only torture for the right reasons.

Would you be a tad less sarcastic if we called it American Fabulousism?

And while I'm at it, let me state my position on "torture" in the language of the Left.

Torture* should be kept safe... legal... and rare.

* As defined by Code Pink, Frank Rich, Keith Olbermann, capitulating Europeans and all other sufferers of Bush Derangement Syndrome -- not the "infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure" kinda torture as defined by Merriam Webster and denizens of reality.

 

[BVS]

Would you be a tad less sarcastic if we called it American Fabulousism?

Your rudeness has hit a new low...

 

[Irvine511]

the "infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure" kinda torture as defined by Merriam Webster and denizens of reality.

thus, you believe that John McCain was not torured?

 

[Vincent Vega]

capitulating Europeans and all other sufferers of Bush Derangement Syndrome

Thanks very much, quite telling once again.