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Old 08-22-2008, 04:15 PM   #41
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It is often the case with military intelligence, that there is an intended direct and indirect result. The direct result of torture does not yield effective results. That has been acknowledged by the French, Germans, Japanese, United States and many others experienced in the trade. In many cases, that is not the intended purpose, especially in captive communal environments. The indirect result is intimidation and fear directed toward individuals within the community. The theory being weaker elements of the community will voluntarily produce information to avoid direct consequence. Far more information is gained via informers or collaborators. That information also tends to be mostly accurate.

For people charged with obtaining intelligence information, the challenge is always how to obtain the indirect results without applying direct techniques. As much as movies, TV and other media outlets portray the people charged with these tasks enjoying your jobs, it is something they have to do, not something they want to do. Of course, there are always those rogue elements who will enjoy the task.

I am not defending the practice. Ideally, it would not be necessary. I am just trying to lend perspective. I never knew a single person in the Army's MI branch who thought it was a good idea to take a prisoner and start beating them over the head for information, though that seems to be the popular portrayal.
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:39 AM   #42
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John McCain did in fact sign a false confession.
I'm aware of that.
What I'm not aware of is our country coercing any of these false confessions. What I have not seen, is FoxNews or any other outlet flaunting these documents to prove ours the just and virtuous cause.

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Which is the point of torture. People will say anything to get it to stop.
True, which is why I only approve of it in isolated circumstances (grave urgency, information of high value about operations or terror plots), done only on captured terror suspects and only by trained professionals within prescribed parameters and with cabinet level or higher approval and with congressional oversight.)
Never on a uniformed soldier, or as punishment or to gain evidence for trial.
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Old 08-23-2008, 08:10 AM   #43
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so much for conservative moral clarity and resistance to relativism.
So all torture is bad. Ok, that's a noble position. But tell me, would you ever say killing is always bad? War, self-defense, murder... no difference, it's all killing and none of it can never be justified. Pacifism, that's noble right? But how practicle is it? How practicle is any absolutism?

How about this. How far does your terror prohibition go? Is solitary confinement "torture"? How about sodium pentathol? How about serving goat entrails for dinner two nights in a row? Or with stale dates?
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Old 08-23-2008, 09:25 AM   #44
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I'm aware of that.
What I'm not aware of is our country coercing any of these false confessions. What I have not seen, is FoxNews or any other outlet flaunting these documents to prove ours the just and virtuous cause.

you are aware that most of what KSM said when he was waterboarded turned out to be false and enormous amounts of money are wasted, every day, chasing down leads extracted from tortured individuals. this seems to be a false confession as much as anything.


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True, which is why I only approve of it in isolated circumstances (grave urgency, information of high value about operations or terror plots), done only on captured terror suspects and only by trained professionals within prescribed parameters and with cabinet level or higher approval and with congressional oversight.)
Never on a uniformed soldier, or as punishment or to gain evidence for trial.
once you let the sadists in, they take over.
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Old 08-23-2008, 09:25 AM   #45
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So all torture is bad. Ok, that's a noble position. But tell me, would you ever say killing is always bad? War, self-defense, murder... no difference, it's all killing and none of it can never be justified. Pacifism, that's noble right? But how practicle is it? How practicle is any absolutism?

How about this. How far does your terror prohibition go? Is solitary confinement "torture"? How about sodium pentathol? How about serving goat entrails for dinner two nights in a row? Or with stale dates?


there are/were very clear rules about what was and what was not torture.
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:12 PM   #46
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Is a ham sandwich torture?
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:37 PM   #47
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Is a ham sandwich torture?
If a Muslim or, for that matter, Jewish prisoner was forced to eat meats prohibited under his religion, then, yes, it probably is.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:14 AM   #48
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exceptionalism.

remind yourself of that.

exceptionalism.

we only torture for the right reasons.
Would you be a tad less sarcastic if we called it American Fabulousism?

And while I'm at it, let me state my position on "torture" in the language of the Left.

Torture* should be kept safe... legal... and rare.

* As defined by Code Pink, Frank Rich, Keith Olbermann, capitulating Europeans and all other sufferers of Bush Derangement Syndrome -- not the "infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure" kinda torture as defined by Merriam Webster and denizens of reality.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:52 AM   #49
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Would you be a tad less sarcastic if we called it American Fabulousism?


Your rudeness has hit a new low...
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Old 08-24-2008, 07:17 PM   #50
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the "infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure" kinda torture as defined by Merriam Webster and denizens of reality.


thus, you believe that John McCain was not torured?
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Old 08-24-2008, 10:59 PM   #51
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capitulating Europeans and all other sufferers of Bush Derangement Syndrome
Thanks very much, quite telling once again.
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