McCain was not tortured - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-21-2008, 12:07 PM   #21
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston01 View Post
there are in fact people who want you, me and every member of our families dead just because we ... believe that we should have the right to post in forums such as this.
I want to thank you for your post because I think it is very thoughtful and I wish you'd post more.

But I want to highlight this above as logic that has really been bought into by a large segment of the American population. It is very simplistic thinking because it frames the issue in a very clear way - they want to take away your right to eat a chicken McNugget!! and so on. It isn't constructive and I wish you had better politicians and a better media so that people didn't actually go around believing that a billion brown people want you dead because you think you should have a right to post on Interference.
__________________

anitram is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 12:46 PM   #22
The Fly
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 90
Local Time: 01:57 PM
anitram, thank you for your sentiments.

It is always my hope that no one 'buys' anything on face value. I understand there are those on both sides of the political fence that do just that regularly. I do happen to believe after much thought, observation, study and life experience that that very thought i mentioned is true. I may be right or wrong, but the evidence presented in my life has shown that to me in a very clear way. What is very unclear to me is how to resolve the situation.

I have to say I don't subscribe the the McNugget philosophy! There is not much that can be said for people who do, other than the fact that they are ill informed.

I base my beliefs on radical leadership throughout the world. It is their stated intent to harm citizen's of the United States, whether our president is Bush, Kerry, Clinton, Gore or anyone else. It is also the intention of some nations to villianise the United States in order to foster their own internal political agendas. That was fairly evident this week in the Russian media's coverage of the conflict in Georgia.

Generations have grown up consuming anti-American sentiment. They teach their children what they were taught. Hopefully, with more informtion accessisible current and future generations will open up and there will be a renewed level of tolerance.

My fear is that as populations soar, resources dwindle and the same old suspects exist in global politics (or their equivalents), we are going to see more conflict, not less. There seems to be some denial on the part of some, but it is the fundamental law of systems science: the entropy of a closed system increases.

Logic leads me to the beliefs I hold today based on the information presented to me. I am sure that is different for everyone based on their own experience. I do know that if I were to go to downtown a number of nations and stand in a public square preaching freedom and human rights, I would be locked up at a minimum.
__________________

Boston01 is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 12:58 PM   #23
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston01 View Post
Logic leads me to the beliefs I hold today based on the information presented to me. I am sure that is different for everyone based on their own experience. I do know that if I were to go to downtown a number of nations and stand in a public square preaching freedom and human rights, I would be locked up at a minimum.
There's no doubt that this is true. We in the west definitely enjoy a level of personal and collective freedom that is sorely lacking in other parts of the world.

But what I think is simplistic is that argument that "they" (whoever they are) hate us because of our way of life, period. Certainly you will find factions in the Islamic world that probably hate just about every aspect of our lifestyle. There are actually factions right here in the US that hate a good portion of some of our lifestyles as well, and no doubt this is amplified in a truly theocratic system. However, this is just one facet of the problem that the Islamic world as a whole has. The countries are by and large poor and uneducated. There is no access to secular education at all. They are at the mercy of theocrats and dictators whom we largely support (look no further than the Saudis), whether enthusiastically or tacitly. The infrastructure is terrible, and on and on. A lot of that translates into perceived evildoing by the US and the West more generally, but a lot of it isn't exactly based in complete nonsense. Again, our continued support of terrible regimes there so that we can drive ridiculous trucks and Hummers here fueled by cheap gas should bring shame upon us.

Bottom line is: if we say, they want to kill all of us because they hate our way of life, that is a very cheap and easy way out of a complex situation to which we HAVE contributed to some degree if we are being at all honest.

This is to say nothing of the fact that I think the majority out there really has no tangible qualms with the West and frankly would embrace the opportunity to emigrate if they had it.
anitram is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 01:37 PM   #24
The Fly
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 90
Local Time: 01:57 PM
anitram, I happen to agree with your thoughts. I may have presented this simply, but I understand it is not a simple problem, nor is there a simple solution. I also know that some of our actions in the past have contributed to the current state of affairs, whether intentional or not. We have supported some of the worst regimes in history and sit by while they sponsor or commit atrocities inside and outside of their borders. I think their are many good people in the world from every nation.

The situation in the world is certainly complex. It helps to understand how we got here, but in the end, it matters more what we do going forward. I suspect there are many people in the world who despise western civilization because they were taught that was the right thing to do. It is certainly true that there are people in the United States who hold similar beliefs about others in the world. Information, education and setting a good example are the only ways to move forward.

One of the reasons I originally posted was that the same issues I see between east and west, axis and allies, nation to nation, I am seeing internally in the United States. We have become so polarized in our beliefs and consumed with calling each other 'libs', neo-cons', etc. that it is amazing to me that we make any progress as a nation. In fact, we are probably not making any progress. We could never hope to solve the world's problems, if they are in fact ours to solve at all, if we cannot behave in non-partisan manner internally. There is so much focus on blame being shifted from one side to the other and we are not directing our energy and intelligence on solving problems and attaining goals. We all need to support each other and move forward. Maybe, I am the one being too idealistic now!
Boston01 is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 01:43 PM   #25
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,720
Local Time: 09:57 AM
but when it comes to the issue of torture, it is simple.

it doesn't work.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 01:50 PM   #26
The Fly
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 90
Local Time: 01:57 PM
Irvine511, I happen to agree with you on many points, as well. Torture is not highly effective. It is not an optimal approach by any means. At times, it does produce results. At times, it produces incorrect results. There are certainly moral issues associated to the practice.

I am certainly not of the belief that those in the military are above the law. I am also not of the belief that 'military' as a whole should be judged. The Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard are governed by stricter rules/regulations than any private citizen. These organizations are made up of individuals. Most are very good people with good intentions. Some are not. Those who act illegally should be punished. If an unlawful order is given, it is an officer's right to deny it with appropriate grounds to do so.
Boston01 is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 01:57 PM   #27
Blue Crack Addict
 
GirlsAloudFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 26,403
Local Time: 08:57 AM
This thread title is hilarious.
GirlsAloudFan is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 02:18 PM   #28
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 08:57 AM
Wow, this is about the shittiest thread I've ever read on FYM. Well done guys.
MadelynIris is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 02:20 PM   #29
The Fly
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 90
Local Time: 01:57 PM
We aim to please
Boston01 is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 02:20 PM   #30
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,720
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadelynIris View Post
Wow, this is about the shittiest thread I've ever read on FYM. Well done guys.

i know, it's shitty when your nation does things you like to think that only other nations do.

you should ask george bush and all the defenders of "enhanced interrogation techniques" if they think john mccain, a prisoner of war, was tortured.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 02:23 PM   #31
The Fly
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 90
Local Time: 01:57 PM
I should say 'We aim to please, Father!' ... that show is brilliant!
Boston01 is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 02:36 PM   #32
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 08:57 AM
Quote:
you should ask george bush and all the defenders of "enhanced interrogation techniques" if they think john mccain, a prisoner of war, was tortured.
I'm sending him an email now. I'll let you know what he says when he comes to visit Baghdad at Christmas -- we'll probably get Condi instead. Or maybe some pro wrestlers or playboy bunnies.

Either way, we'll be entertained.
MadelynIris is offline  
Old 08-21-2008, 03:13 PM   #33
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,739
Local Time: 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadelynIris View Post
I'm sending him an email now. I'll let you know what he says when he comes to visit Baghdad at Christmas -- we'll probably get Condi instead. Or maybe some pro wrestlers or playboy bunnies.

Either way, we'll be entertained.
Of all the topics currently discussed inthe election campaign this one is finally something that really has some importance and relevance.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 08-22-2008, 08:22 AM   #34
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i quite agree. he was tortured.

you should email your president and tell him.
Bush knows John McCain was tortured.
Nancy Pelosi and Jay Rockefeller know as well as they have been briefed from day 1 on CIA operations. In fact, 95% of Americans know John McCain was tortured. The ones that seem to be having a problem with it (shame on you Andrew Sullivan) are the noodle-brained partisans that have spent the last 6 years calling every aggressive interrogation technique "torture," every anti-terrorism action "a war crime" or "assault on the constitution," to the point they now have obviously lost all ability to differentiate between:

The fact that John McCain was a uniformed soldier entitled to full Geneva Convention protections.
The detainees captured by Americans had no uniform, fought for no country and were unlawful combatants.
Have any uniformed soldiers been "tortured" in the past 6 years?

The fact that John McCain was interrogated for information but also beaten and tortured out of revenge and anger because he refused an early release, to meet with anti-war groups, sign false confessions or propaganda letters.
Only a few high-value al-Qaeda detainees have been harshly interrogated (including 3 that were waterboarded), but with the sole aim of stopping the future mass murder of innocent civilians.
Have any detainees (apart from the rogue actions of Abu Ghraib) been subject to torture out of sadism, revenge, punishment or to renounce their beliefs?

The fact that "guests" in Guantanamo receive three culturally sensitive meals a day, medical care, a Koran and time to pray five times a day.
The Hanoi Hilton... wasn't as accommodating.

To name but a few.

There's nothing wrong with holding America to the highest standards in regards to human dignity, but context people.

"All torture is wrong."
So much for liberal nuance.
INDY500 is offline  
Old 08-22-2008, 08:52 AM   #35
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,720
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
"All torture is wrong."
So much for liberal nuance.


so much for conservative moral clarity and resistance to relativism.

i agree McCain was torture. he was tortured using the same tactics that Bush has authorized our forces to use. the uniforms matter not at all in a situation where someone has already been detained and is incarcerated.

shame on Bush for dragging us all down to his level.

you cannot make the argument that it's okay when you do it because you're better than they are, because when you do do it, you cease to be better than they are.



Quote:
The fact that "guests" in Guantanamo receive three culturally sensitive meals a day, medical care, a Koran and time to pray five times a day.
The Hanoi Hilton... wasn't as accommodating.
this goes far, far beyond GitMo.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-22-2008, 09:17 AM   #36
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 09:57 AM
I wasn't aware of the fact that the legal and commonly understood definition of torture was conditional to the person being tortured being a soldier.

I suppose all civilians are out of luck then.

I am very disturbed by this sort of thinking. VERY.
anitram is offline  
Old 08-22-2008, 09:23 AM   #37
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,720
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I wasn't aware of the fact that the legal and commonly understood definition of torture was conditional to the person being tortured being a soldier.

I suppose all civilians are out of luck then.

I am very disturbed by this sort of thinking. VERY.


exceptionalism.

remind yourself of that.

exceptionalism.

we only torture for the right reasons.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-22-2008, 11:32 AM   #38
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Have any uniformed soldiers been "tortured" in the past 6 years?
So this is what makes the "moral superior" party sleep at night?
BVS is offline  
Old 08-22-2008, 12:48 PM   #39
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,739
Local Time: 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

The fact that John McCain was a uniformed soldier entitled to full Geneva Convention protections.
The detainees captured by Americans had no uniform, fought for no country and were unlawful combatants.
Have any uniformed soldiers been "tortured" in the past 6 years?
Yes, second class people not worth of what the western world accepts as basics of humanity.

You should be careful, I guess you aren't wearing a uniform. Me neither.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:30 PM   #40
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
mobvok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: boom clap
Posts: 4,435
Local Time: 05:57 AM
Quote:
The fact that John McCain was interrogated for information but also beaten and tortured out of revenge and anger because he refused an early release, to meet with anti-war groups, sign false confessions or propaganda letters.
John McCain did in fact sign a false confession.

Which is the point of torture. People will say anything to get it to stop.
__________________

mobvok is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×