Marriage Equality Defended in Massachusetts

[A_Wanderer]

decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females

You were sexually attracted to females when you were an infant or small child - or was there a point when you started to find girls a bit more interesting?

 

[joyfulgirl]

I think there's no debate for most of us as to the "wrongness" or "rightness" of adultery, and yet no one's advocating that the rights of adulterers should be taken away.

What a great example.

 

[deep]

You were sexually attracted to females when you were an infant or small child -

all baby boys are born straight
and all baby girls are born gay

as the girls get older most of the choose to go straight, lucky for us straight guys.

 

[deep]

What a great example.

and anyone that has ever fornicated even once

should for ever be labeled as someone that all decent people reserve "hate" for

fornication is their "sin"

we should say we love you "fornicator"

but we hate "your sin".

thank you for validating are "righteous hate"

we go to church to validate our "hate'.


Love the filthy fornicator and hate their "filthy sin".


oh, and the best part for you

you will never be able to partake of the sacrament of marriage,
you will forever be known as the "fornicator" that allows us our righteous hate.

So it is "written" in the Lord's Book.

 

[Irvine511]

except me, whose best friend is a gay male--not at all uncommon

and he's kinda attractive, too.

 

[Irvine511]

Every gay person I've talked to says that they "always knew" even when they were living (or trying to live) as a straight person.

and some of us had Playboys in our rooms, and late at night we'd try and try and try and try ... and it wasn't that it couldn't happen, it was that it was a struggle, and a near forcing of a response that, when you're 15, should be pretty near automatic. whereas i could just close my eyes and imagine the same sex, and it would be as natural as breathing.

being an overly analytical, over-thinking individual with an expansive self-narrative, i thought i could re-condition myself, i spun pseudo-psychological narratives for myself to explain this away, i reassured myself that once i finally had sex with a woman then it would all go away. or at least become manageable.

and i will say that the first time with a woman wasn't a chore, exactly, but it was an effort, and awkward, and something i felt i must do, and do well.

first time with a man, it was like taking a long drink of water after marching through the deserted for 3 days.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

It defies all logic to think and believe that anyone would freely choose to be homosexual when you consider all they are subjected to in this world. It just makes no sense to me.

 

[Irvine511]

i wonder, though, how many gay people would "choose" to be straight, if they could; and, likewise, how many straight people would "choose" to be gay.

 

[2861U2]

Explain to me this. What about people who have been in relationships with both sexes? If they were indeed born gay like you say, werent they choosing to be straight when dating someone of the opposite sex?

Or are bisexuals a completely different story?

ETA: Hey, 1000 posts!

 

[BVS]

Explain to me this. What about people who have been in relationships with both sexes? If they were indeed born gay like you say, werent they choosing to be straight when dating someone of the opposite sex?

Or are bisexuals a completely different story?

If you lived in a world that told you you were wrong, wouldn't you at least try at some point to be "normal". If this world said being you were wrong, and people would beat you just for being you, you were denied rights just because of who you are, I'm positive you would at least try for a short while to pretend you were someone else.

 

[anitram]

Originally posted by Irvine511 likewise, how many straight people would "choose" to be gay. [/B]

I'd have to know a bit more about this gay lifestyle before I commit...

 

[martha]

Or are bisexuals a completely different story?

What the hell is wrong with you? Why the rolleyes? If you don't understand it, it's fair game for you to ridicule?

God help you as you grow up. I mean that; you're going to have a hard time if you are so rigid and inflexible about thing outside your experience.

 

[2861U2]

If you lived in a world that told you you were wrong, wouldn't you at least try at some point to be "normal". If this world said being you were wrong, and people would beat you just for being you, you were denied rights just because of who you are, I'm positive you would at least try for a short while to pretend you were someone else.

I dont know about that. I would be proud to be whatever it is that I am, not ashamed. People attack Republicans and Christians pretty often, but I would never for a second pretend to be a Democrat or a non-Christian just to avoid persecution.

If what you're saying is correct, I think it hurts their fight more than helps it. You see, that contributes to people like me saying "See? They can choose their orientation."

 

[martha]

You see, that contributes to people like me saying "See? They can choose their orientation."

Because people like you like to think you know more than therapists, scientists, bisexuals, and pretty much anyone else who disagrees with your narrow world-view.

Yep, everyone should plan things out carefully so you have no doubts about anything they do.

 

[anitram]

If what you're saying is correct, I think it hurts their fight more than helps it. You see, that contributes to people like me saying "See? They can choose their orientation."

It's the fault of gay people that you think they're not born gay because at some point in their life they may have taken somebody of the opposite sex to the prom and dinner a couple of times in a desperate attempt to be just like everyone else in their high school or college?

 

[BVS]

I dont know about that. I would be proud to be whatever it is that I am, not ashamed. People attack Republicans and Christians pretty often, but I would never for a second pretend to be a Democrat or a non-Christian just to avoid persecution.

You're joking right?

When was the last time Republicans or Christians were denied rights or beaten down here in the US?

Then use some of the strength and start thinking for yourself, quit believing all these lies you've been taught! Stand up and think for yourself...

If what you're saying is correct, I think it hurts their fight more than helps it. You see, that contributes to people like me saying "See? They can choose their orientation."

Wow... That's such crap. Well people like you should educate yourselves.

Did you read the link I provided for you?

 

[deep]

Explain to me this. What about people who have been in relationships with both sexes? If they were indeed born gay like you say, werent they choosing to be straight when dating someone of the opposite sex?

Or are bisexuals a completely different story?

ETA: Hey, 1000 posts!

I think I understand your thinking.

It is my opinion that you tend view things in terms of "absolutes".

Right or wrong.

I once broke down things that way.

It is a practical way of viewing things and it left me with pretty good confidence that my conclusions were well reasoned
because I had evaluated everything and gave it a thumps up or thumbs down.

People that had different opinions from me?
I considered them wishy washy afraid to make the hard judgements
because they did not want to hurt anyone's feelings, even if that person was wrong.

When I held these views it was pretty easy for me dismiss opposing points of view. I tried to do it as respectful as I could.


Well, there came a point were I threw this process of judgements completely out the window.

 

[Irvine511]

It's the fault of gay people that you think they're not born gay because at some point in their life they may have taken somebody of the opposite sex to the prom and dinner a couple of times in a desperate attempt to be just like everyone else in their high school or college?

that would be me!



some of us have even had relations with someone of the opposite sex ... poor girl, i know now that she knows it wasn't her fault.

 

[Irvine511]

so, anyway, bisexuals.

i'm not one. i tried to be one, once, but i was lying to myself.

are there people who are bisexual? absolutely. can they be said to have a meaningful "choice" as to the gender that they choose to date/love/marry? yes and no. i suppose if someone was equally attracted to both genders, but decided that they were only going to date those of the opposite gender, then they are exercising a degree of "choice" resulting from a conscious decision.

gay people and straight people do not operate in this way.

however, much as you do not choose which girl you fall in love with, can a bisexual person be held accountable for falling in love with someone, regardless of gender?

 

[Irvine511]

I dont know about that. I would be proud to be whatever it is that I am, not ashamed. People attack Republicans and Christians pretty often, but I would never for a second pretend to be a Democrat or a non-Christian just to avoid persecution.

can you really compate the "persecution" you face -- occasionally, someone on TV makes fun of you -- to the legal and social pesecution that gay people face? would you ever be kicked out of your family for being Republican and/or Christian? denied housing? fired from a job? beaten nearly to death? beaten to death? denied the right to the legal recognition of your relationship? had to battle spiteful parents who might try to possess at least half of the estate you and your partner had built should one of you die? spiteful parents who would prevent you from visiting your partner in the hospital?

 

[deep]

I don't know what per cent of people are gay.

10% - 3%, ?

It does not matter to me.

All people should have equal treatment and acceptance.

I do believe bi-sexuals deserve the same, I think there are far fewer of them than gay people. I could be wrong.


But, introducing that orientation only muddies it up.

It reminds me of when:

the Tobacco lobby (during 60s - 80s) wanted findings included that stated tobacco may not be additive or cause cancer.

And also "Creationism" included in science classes.

The odd contrarian Scientist that states men is not contributing to global warming.

Teach, argue, include "the controversy" and the other side will not make progress.

 

[BVS]

can you really compate the "persecution" you face -- occasionally, someone on TV makes fun of you --

Exactly, I love how white conservative Christian males think they are so persecuted. It just furthers my belief that they live very sheltered, narrow lives. If they walked in the shoes of a Jewish person, gay person, black person, or even a woman for just one day they would realize how ridiculous their whining is...

 

[Irvine511]

statistics on who is and who is not gay are highly unreliable, since surveys regarding sex and sexuality are highly unreliable. some people might be living as a straight person, but in a different world, under different circumstance, they'd have been gay.

they've hit on me in bars and online. i feel for them, i do, but i'm not going to help someone cheat on their spouse. and, if asked, i'm sure they'd answer "straight" to some sort of survey.

the ability to even identify as gay is contingent, to some degree, on variables such as ethnicity and socio-economic status. the stereotype of gay men being rich, white, and urban is partly due to the fact that it is easiest for white men with some kind of financial independence to actually come out and be able to survive the possible consequences -- abandonment by family, ostricization by the community -- that are often suffered by gay men.

my experience has show me this.

there are significantly more gay men than lesbians. i've heard estimates of almost a 2-to-1 ratio. my guess is that this has to do with gender differences where physicality plays a much stronger part in sexual attraction for men than it does for women (a generalization, i know).

however, the amount of women who claim some sort of bisexual attraction is probably higher than the percentage of gay men. for whatever reason, i've known many women who have had a same-sex fling, admit to sexual girl-crushes, who occasionally fantasize about other women, but they all have wound up with men.

generally, men don't do this.

the reaction a straight man is going to have at the thought of performing oral sex on another man is roughly analgous to the reaction a gay man is going to have at the thought of performing oral sex on a woman.

 

[deep]

I dont know about that. I would be proud to be whatever it is that I am, not ashamed. People attack Republicans and Christians pretty often, but I would never for a second pretend to be a Democrat or a non-Christian just to avoid persecution.

If what you're saying is correct, I think it hurts their fight more than helps it. You see, that contributes to people like me saying "See? They can choose their orientation."

"I dont know about that. I would be proud to be whatever it is that I am, not ashamed."

Your 19, write that down and put it in a sealed envelope, and open it on your 40th birthday.

"I would never for a second pretend to be a Democrat or a non-Christian just to avoid persecution.

If what you're saying is correct, I think it hurts their fight more than helps it. You see, that contributes to people like me saying "See? They can choose their orientation."

Yeah, your right Anne Frank and her family should have been proud of who they were and not hid it.

They contributed to what happened to the Jews.

It is too bad they did not have the same courage of conviction as you.

"I would never for a second pretend to be a non-Christian just to avoid persecution."

 

[phillyfan26]

can you really compate the "persecution" you face -- occasionally, someone on TV makes fun of you -- to the legal and social pesecution that gay people face? would you ever be kicked out of your family for being Republican and/or Christian? denied housing? fired from a job? beaten nearly to death? beaten to death? denied the right to the legal recognition of your relationship? had to battle spiteful parents who might try to possess at least half of the estate you and your partner had built should one of you die? spiteful parents who would prevent you from visiting your partner in the hospital?

Key point right there, and I'd like to see the response.

 

[2861U2]

can you really compate the "persecution" you face to the legal and social pesecution that gay people face?

No, I was never attempting to make any comparisons. I'm saying that there is persecution everywhere and that you shouldnt pretend to be something you arent just to please people or to attempt to avoid criticism.

Yet, some of these last few posts seem to be equating the struggles that gays face with the Holocaust. Now that doesnt quite seem appropriate, does it?

 

[deep]

statistics on who is and who is not gay are highly unreliable, since surveys regarding sex and sexuality are highly unreliable. some people might be living as a straight person, but in a different world, under different circumstance, they'd have been gay.

they've hit on me in bars and online. i feel for them, i do, but i'm not going to help someone cheat on their spouse. and, if asked, i'm sure they'd answer "straight" to some sort of survey.

the ability to even identify as gay is contingent, to some degree, on variables such as ethnicity and socio-economic status. the stereotype of gay men being rich, white, and urban is partly due to the fact that it is easiest for white men with some kind of financial independence to actually come out and be able to survive the possible consequences -- abandonment by family, ostricization by the community -- that are often suffered by gay men.

my experience has show me this.

there are significantly more gay men than lesbians. i've heard estimates of almost a 2-to-1 ratio. my guess is that this has to do with gender differences where physicality plays a much stronger part in sexual attraction for men than it does for women (a generalization, i know).

however, the amount of women who claim some sort of bisexual attraction is probably higher than the percentage of gay men. for whatever reason, i've known many women who have had a same-sex fling, admit to sexual girl-crushes, who occasionally fantasize about other women, but they all have wound up with men.

generally, men don't do this.

the reaction a straight man is going to have at the thought of performing oral sex on another man is roughly analgous to the reaction a gay man is going to have at the thought of performing oral sex on a woman.

Thanks for sharing your insight

the numbers should not matter,

regarding the treatment of people based upon consenting activities.

 

[BVS]

No, I was never attempting to make any comparisons. I'm saying that there is persecution everywhere and that you shouldnt pretend to be something you arent just to please people or to attempt to avoid criticism.

Yet, some of these last few posts seem to be equating the struggles that gays face with the Holocaust. Now that doesnt quite seem appropriate, does it?

You don't get it. It's not to avoid criticism or please people, come on!!! People are beaten, disowned by families, denied rights, etc. And why? Because someone somewhere got fed a bunch of lies...

 

[deep]

Yet, some of these last few posts seem to be equating the struggles that gays face with the Holocaust. Now that doesnt quite seem appropriate, does it?

It is a matter on degree.

Do you think some gay people do not come forward because their lives would be in danger?

 

[phillyfan26]

No, I was never attempting to make any comparisons. I'm saying that there is persecution everywhere and that you shouldnt pretend to be something you arent just to please people or to attempt to avoid criticism.

Yet, some of these last few posts seem to be equating the struggles that gays face with the Holocaust. Now that doesnt quite seem appropriate, does it?

It's not to please or avoid criticism! You call taking away their rights "criticism?" Give me a break!

And the struggles of gays are closer to Holocaust than to conservative white problems.