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Old 06-21-2007, 02:58 AM   #141
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Originally posted by 2861U2

Men lusting after other men 2000 years ago is not that different from men lusting after men today. It's the reason Sodom was destroyed. Check it out.
And what exactly does it say about lesbians? Since you are so up on your scripture please show me something...
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Old 06-21-2007, 05:14 AM   #142
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No, I dont buy into the idea that people are born gay. I believe they choose to be.
The American Psychological Association has come right out with saying people are born gay. I've studied sexuality development theories that show the same thing. It isn't just "science" as you say, I didn't pick up a flask nor did I calculate equations. These theories came along after years of studying and observing how people grow. The Cass Model (you can probably google it) is a very good one and used by many in my field. Actually, there are some parallels between sexual identity development and ethnic identity development in that the person is trying to discover a part of themselves that may not be "mainstream" or whatever.

How can you believe that people aren't born gay but are born heterosexual?? That part I don't understand. It is like saying that someone isn't born black, they choose to be.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:01 AM   #143
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^Another point I find extremely annoying is the selection of science that extreme Christians won't accept....

...They will accept most medicine because it will save their life. They can accept science has given us the ability to fly, to go to the moon and back, they accept science can allow us to predict the weather, or that science can carbon date the Haraldskær woman to 500 BC, or that science created the computer we type on, and many, many other things....

...but science is incredibly wrong when it says homosexuals are born how they are, that it is wrong again when it says the Earth is older than 6000 years, when it is a clear that the earth and humans had been about thousands of years before that...science just has to be wrong, it is ridiculous beyond belief, and should be beyond any reasonable person's faith.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:10 AM   #144
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^ you're right it is due to science that we're able to post on these boards.

i'm curious though...i know many christians get a bad rep over this, but aren't there other religious groups that share a similar narrowed perspective against science?
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:42 AM   #145
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I don't think Islam is quite so anti-science, it was under Arab scholars that science continued to flourish before the renaissance, when a lot of science teaching was lost in Europe. The extremists I suppose would, but there isn't anything fundamentally anti-science in Islam.

The Catholic Church basically accepts everything science, except when it comes to homosexuality, it becomes distinctly anti-science.

Buddhism I don't think has any issues with science....

There are probably some small cults or something that denounces all science, but evangelical Christians are the only ones I can think of that denounce quite a bit of science in the mainstream.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:48 AM   #146
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Originally posted by 2861U2
No, I dont buy into the idea that people are born gay. I believe they choose to be.


maybe you chose to be straight, but i didn't choose to be gay.

in order to have any credibility whatsoever on this topic, you're going to have to disabuse yourself of this notion.

did this one gay person you know tell you about the day he/she chose to be gay?

(and can you PLEASE tell me more about the gay lifestyle)
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:49 AM   #147
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Sorry. I'll trust science with many things, but hearing that people are born gay just doesnt make sense.


has it occured to you that your religious beliefs pretty much have to be bogus if you have to lie to yourself in order to live with them?
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:50 AM   #148
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Originally posted by 2861U2



Sorry. I'll trust science with many things, but hearing that people are born gay just doesnt make sense.
Yeah, it makes a lot more sense that they decide to be gay and live in a world full of people like you.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:35 AM   #149
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Originally posted by 2861U2
It's the reason Sodom was destroyed. Check it out.
This is a later revisionist view originated by the apocryphal "Book of Jubilees" (~2nd century B.C.) which was intended to be a defense of traditional Judaism from the dominant Greek culture of the day.

The traditional view is that it is related to ancient hospitality customs.

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Rabbinic writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and outsiders.

A rabbinic tradition, described in the Mishnah, postulates that the sin of Sodom was related to property: Sodomites believed that "what is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" (Abot), which is interpreted as a lack of compassion. Another rabbinic tradition is that these two wealthy cities treated visitors in a sadistic fashion. One example is the story of the "bed" that guests to Sodom were forced to sleep in: if they were too short they were stretched to fit it, and if they were too tall, they were cut up
The linguistic evidence is supportive, as the word traditionally misapplied to "sex acts" literally means "know" (yad'ah).

"Bring them out to us that we may know them."

And, indeed, there are verses in the Bible referring to how one can "yad'ah" YHWH ("know God"). The Book of Jubilees likely made its extrapolation on the fact that "yad'ah" could also have a sexual definition. However, in all other instances of the word in the Old Testament that could refer to sex, it is always in reference to heterosexual sex.

Where I end up further deferring to old rabbinic tradition is on the issue of Judges 19, which tells of the destruction of Gibeah--and the text is pretty much a retelling of the Sodom and Gomorrah texts, but involving a female.

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"There they turned off to enter Gibeah for the night. The man waited in the public square of the city he had entered, but no one offered them the shelter of his home for the night. In the evening, however, an old man came from his work in the field; he was from the mountain region of Ephraim, though he lived among the Benjaminite townspeople of Gibeah. When he noticed the traveler in the public square of the city, the old man asked where he was going, and whence he had come. He said to him, "We are traveling from Bethlehem of Judah far up into the mountain region of Ephraim, where I belong. I have been to Bethlehem of Judah and am now going back home; but no one has offered us the shelter of his house. We have straw and fodder for our asses, and bread and wine for the woman and myself and for our servant; there is nothing else we need." "You are welcome," the old man said to him, "but let me provide for all your needs, and do not spend the night in the public square." So he led them to his house and provided fodder for the asses. Then they washed their feet, and ate and drank. While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, who were corrupt, surrounded the house and beat on the door. They said to the old man whose house it was, "Bring out your guest, that we may abuse him." The owner of the house went out to them and said, "No, my brothers; do not be so wicked. Since this man is my guest, do not commit this crime. Rather let me bring out my maiden daughter or his concubine. Ravish them, or do whatever you want with them; but against the man you must not commit this wanton crime." When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go. Then at daybreak the woman came and collapsed at the entrance of the house in which her husband was a guest, where she lay until the morning. When her husband rose that day and opened the door of the house to start out again on his journey, there lay the woman, his concubine, at the entrance of the house with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Come, let us go"; but there was no answer. So the man placed her on an ass and started out again for home. On reaching home, he took a knife to the body of his concubine, cut her into twelve pieces, and sent them throughout the territory of Israel. Everyone who saw this said, "Nothing like this has been done or seen from the day the Israelites came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Take note of it, and state what you propose to do." - Judges 19:15-30
Notice the distinction that they made between "abusing" her and "having relations" with her. Nonetheless, this roving mob of depraved heterosexuals prompted God to raise an army and destroy the entirety of Gibeah. Should we, thus, extrapolate that God destroyed Gibeah because of "heterosexuality"? And if we are to make that extrapolation, should we thus make another extrapolation that says that God prohibits "all heterosexuality"?

This is my main problem with how people view the Bible. Even if we are, for a moment, to assume that the Book of Jubilees was correct, why Sodom and Gomorrah wouldn't be a narrow prohibition against violent rape is because of bias. As far as I'm concerned, those who wish to condemn the entirety of "homosexuality" based on Sodom and Gomorrah must also condemn the entirety of "heterosexuality" based on Gibeah.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:36 AM   #150
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Originally posted by LJT

The Catholic Church basically accepts everything science, except when it comes to homosexuality, it becomes distinctly anti-science.
Really? I thought they had changed this stance. My understanding is that the catholic church believes that people are born gay, that it is okay to "be" gay, but not okay to participate in "gay sex." Which...is absurd to me, but whatever.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:52 AM   #151
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I would defer to Melon/Ormus on that, i'd love to know where he gets all his great info though

My understanding is pretty basic of what the Church wants me to believe...their view of homosexuality is stuck in some medieval strain of thought...I don't know what they exactly believe whether homosexuality is natural or not, because all I hear from them at mass is 'it's evil, family destroyer etc'
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:05 AM   #152
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Originally posted by LJT
I would defer to Melon/Ormus on that, i'd love to know where he gets all his great info though

My understanding is pretty basic of what the Church wants me to believe...their view of homosexuality is stuck in some medieval strain of thought...I don't know what they exactly believe whether homosexuality is natural or not, because all I hear from them at mass is 'it's evil, family destroyer etc'
Omg go to a different mass! That's awful! My catholic church was a very different experience. Our community house was even a registered "Safe Zone" with the university, which is intended specifically for homosexuals to feel welcome, but the message is that Everyone can come and be themselves. Granted...there were members of the community who were narrowminded and judgemental, however our priest and campus minister never said anything of the sort, and even my friends said they felt welcomed.

To be fair though, I'd honestly doubt they'd go as far as to support gay marriage. But at least they aren't downright unaccepting of homosexuals as individuals. Baby steps I suppose

Oh, and Melormus is a genius. He doesn't have to dig up the info anywhere, he knows all.
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:28 AM   #153
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Originally posted by Ormus



The linguistic evidence is supportive, as the word traditionally misapplied to "sex acts" literally means "know" (yad'ah).

Wow, so you really can yada yada sex.

(Sorry 'bout that folks, couldn't help it. Carry on.... )
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:44 AM   #154
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Originally posted by unico

Omg go to a different mass! That's awful! My catholic church was a very different experience. Our community house was even a registered "Safe Zone" with the university, which is intended specifically for homosexuals to feel welcome, but the message is that Everyone can come and be themselves. Granted...there were members of the community who were narrowminded and judgemental, however our priest and campus minister never said anything of the sort, and even my friends said they felt welcomed.

To be fair though, I'd honestly doubt they'd go as far as to support gay marriage. But at least they aren't downright unaccepting of homosexuals as individuals. Baby steps I suppose

Oh, and Melormus is a genius. He doesn't have to dig up the info anywhere, he knows all.
That he does!

At the moment i'm just very disenchanted with the Church, people are scapegoating homosexuals for their own dysfuntions. Still I find the Catholic Church most represents my personal faith and i'm a tradionalist when it comes to how I feel the need to express my faith, and the Catholic mass does that for me. It is hard just to sit there and listen to a priest attack how some of my friends and people I know, lead their lives when they hurt no one. Then you hear them go on about materialism and you look at the nice silverware they are using

Belfast is quite a homophobic place though, my parents included...a few weeks back my mum compared homosexuals to paedophiles, asking me whether I would let a gay couple look after a child of mine, would I let them bath him etc I obviously replied yes, her reply 'How would they control themselves?' That really dumbfounded me. I love my mum deeply but that just struck me as so out of her character, she then asked whether I was gay, because you have to apparently be gay to defend their rights. This type of thing is what I think the Catholic Church has to answer for.
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:54 AM   #155
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That he does!

At the moment i'm just very disenchanted with the Church, people are scapegoating homosexuals for their own dysfuntions. Still I find the Catholic Church most represents my personal faith and i'm a tradionalist when it comes to how I feel the need to express my faith, and the Catholic mass does that for me. It is hard just to sit there and listen to a priest attack how some of my friends and people I know, lead their lives when they hurt no one. Then you hear them go on about materialism and you look at the nice silverware they are using

Belfast is quite a homophobic place though, my parents included...a few weeks back my mum compared homosexuals to paedophiles, asking me whether I would let a gay couple look after a child of mine, would I let them bath him etc I obviously replied yes, her reply 'How would they control themselves?' That really dumbfounded me. I love my mum deeply but that just struck me as so out of her character, she then asked whether I was gay, because you have to apparently be gay to defend their rights. This type of thing is what I think the Catholic Church has to answer for.
That must be so difficult to deal with. I guess it all depends on the community. There are actual lay ministers here in the states that minister to the homosexual community. By no means do they try to "change" them or anything, it is more of a support group type of thing. Granted, these types of ministries aren't exactly overflowing with volunteers, but they are there, and hopefully they will grow in time.

You know, I'd say look around! If this sort of open minded catholic community can exist here, I'm sure it exists elsewhere too. You may find a community of people who share your ideals.
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:57 AM   #156
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I'm gonna ask, although I know you won't answer, but here goes:

I have had a variety of reproductive organs removed. Therefore, I cannot have children. If I continue to have sex with my male husband of 18 years, are we sinning?
Come on. Dude, answer me. School's out, the weekend's coming up. I need to know.
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Old 06-21-2007, 09:03 AM   #157
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I go off to see the Police, and still no answer. I won't be able to enjoy certain things until I know if I'm sinning.
Believe it or not, I was wrong in that aspect. After doing a little more research and looking some more in the Bible, I realized I was wrong. Unlike animals (who mate only to procreate), God made humans different than animals. Humans use sex to fulfill bodily desires as well. So, yes, I was wrong, and I truly apologize.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

And what exactly does it say about lesbians?
Huh? I could give you as many passages as you want which condemn homosexuality.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

has it occured to you that your religious beliefs pretty much have to be bogus if you have to lie to yourself in order to live with them?
Please tell me how am I lying to myself.
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Old 06-21-2007, 09:06 AM   #158
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Huh? I could give you as many passages as you want which condemn homosexuality.
I'm only familiar with passages that speak to man on man action. I don't recall any regarding homosexuality in general. So I'd be interested in your sharing of them too.
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Old 06-21-2007, 09:14 AM   #159
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That must be so difficult to deal with. I guess it all depends on the community. There are actual lay ministers here in the states that minister to the homosexual community. By no means do they try to "change" them or anything, it is more of a support group type of thing. Granted, these types of ministries aren't exactly overflowing with volunteers, but they are there, and hopefully they will grow in time.

You know, I'd say look around! If this sort of open minded catholic community can exist here, I'm sure it exists elsewhere too. You may find a community of people who share your ideals.
I shall keep a look out and thanks for the advice!
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Old 06-21-2007, 09:16 AM   #160
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Originally posted by 2861U2
God made humans different than animals. Humans use sex to fulfill bodily desires as well. So, yes, I was wrong, and I truly apologize.

Whew! Good for me, and good for you later in life.


Let the weekend begin!
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