Marriage Equality Defended in Massachusetts

[phillyfan26]

No, I do not believe you. I have read reports on the internet of scientists stating otherwise- that environment plays a role and that you cannot predict who will be gay. Those are some of the problems with your theory and insistance that being born gay is a fact. It might be, but it might not be. You all seem too eager to accept anything that science says.

I still fail to see how you think I am lying to myself.

Just because scientists are not certain what combinations of genes cause homosexuality does not mean that they are unsure whether homosexuality is something a person is born with. It is. Your only defense really is the passages written in the Bible, and they are passages you have misinterpreted. There IS a difference between homosexuality of Biblical times, and that of modern day.

If the Bible stated some other fact was wrong, would you believe it? If it denied that there is a continent of Africa, would you take its word for it?

 

[Irvine511]

I admit to being extremely homophobic when I was younger, it was purely from not knowing and having everyone telling me it was wrong, growing up and actually knowing gay people has changed those views. I just wish more would grow up.

this is truly what it comes down to.

and this is where gay people bear some responsibility. gay people *must* be out and talk about their lives in the way that a straight person talks about thier life. if a straight person wants to tell you about his girlfriend, then feel free to talk about your boyfriend.

Memphis went to an "out and equal" conference where the brilliant B.D. Wong was the keynote speaker. and, addressing a largely gay audience, he simply said, "if you want to live in a world where you can put a picture of your partner on your desk, then put a picture of your partner on your desk."

 

[redhotswami]

this is truly what it comes down to.

and this is where gay people bear some responsibility. gay people *must* be out and talk about their lives in the way that a straight person talks about thier life. if a straight person wants to tell you about his girlfriend, then feel free to talk about your boyfriend.

Memphis went to an "out and equal" conference where the brilliant B.D. Wong was the keynote speaker. and, addressing a largely gay audience, he simply said, "if you want to live in a world where you can put a picture of your partner on your desk, then put a picture of your partner on your desk."

this is true...but at the same time, isn't it also the responsibility for non-gay people (especially those who are so intolerant) to also play a role in creating a social climate where everyone can feel welcome to be themselves? people will continue to be discriminated against unless there is a collective change of heart. while that can be initiated by someone putting a picture of their partner on their desk, at the same time, many bigoted people are governed by this dualistic mindset, and the real change has to happen from within.

 

[Irvine511]

this is true...but at the same time, isn't it also the responsibility for non-gay people (especially those who are so intolerant) to also play a role in creating a social climate where everyone can feel welcome to be themselves? people will continue to be discriminated against unless there is a collective change of heart. while that can be initiated by someone putting a picture of their partner on their desk, at the same time, many bigoted people are governed by this dualistic mindset, and the real change has to happen from within.

yes, gay people need straight allies, just like black people needed white allies, and women needed male allies. i suppose what i'm talking about is the very simple, very day-to-day stuff that gay people can do something about.

quick anecdote: one of Memphis's friends has a picture of the two of us (in Switzerland) on her desk (as another aside, it took a little bit of courage, but whenever we've been on vacation, we unapologetically ask people to take a picture of the two of us, though we tend to ask women more then men -- and think about it, is that something a straight couple ever has to worry about).

anyway, a picture of us on her desk. a coworker looks at it and says, "um, are they, you know ..." and she goes, "gay? yes." and the woman said, "really? what are they like?" and she replies, "um, like people?" and the woman grew more fascinated. she wanted to know if we'd been over to her house, and if we were "gay" when we came over.

so many people are simply ignorant of the reality of most gay people. is there crazysexytime going on in the lives of many gay men? sure. are gay men a little more promiscuous, or at least likely to have sex earlier in a relationship, than your average straight couple? sure. but that's due to being men as opposed to being gay.

ultimately, the reality of gay life -- particularly after one grows up, just like straight people grow up -- is less this ...

and much more this ...

 

[redhotswami]

so many people are simply ignorant of the reality of most gay people. is there crazysexytime going on in the lives of many gay men? sure. are gay men a little more promiscuous, or at least likely to have sex earlier in a relationship, than your average straight couple? sure. but that's due to being men as opposed to being gay.

ultimately, the reality of gay life -- particularly after one grows up, just like straight people grow up -- is less this ...

and much more this ...

do you think that this is something that the media has exploited and embellished to be much larger than it really is? my homosexual college students were just as sexually active as my heterosexual college students. i almost feel like they were just looking for any sort of material so they can show how "sinful" the lifestyle is, and then they blew it up, creating this stereotype.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

as another aside, it took a little bit of courage, but whenever we've been on vacation, we unapologetically ask people to take a picture of the two of us, though we tend to ask women more then men -- and think about it, is that something a straight couple ever has to worry about

That's actually such a poignant thing that says so much if others stop to really think about it. It's a "little" thing that isn't little at all. Me, I don't ask people to take my picture because I just hate having my picture taken. But other than that it's not something that I would ever have to feel uncomfortable about.

 

[martha]

she wanted to know if we'd been over to her house, and if we were "gay" when we came over.

And these people vote

 

[Irvine511]

do you think that this is something that the media has exploited and embellished to be much larger than it really is? my homosexual college students were just as sexually active as my heterosexual college students. i almost feel like they were just looking for any sort of material so they can show how "sinful" the lifestyle is, and then they blew it up, creating this stereotype.

i think by the time a gay man hits 40, and by the time a straight man hits 40, chances are the gay man will have more sexual partners.

he'll also probably be unmarrired. which is a lot to do with things.

i would check back with your students in 10 years and see how things are. i think that most of the difference is due to gender, and i also think that the younger you go, the less acceptable rampant promescuity is among gay people. younger gay men worry about being a "slut" in a way that older gay men never would have, at least in my experience.

much of this is to do with gender, but also with societal expectations. as society starts to expect more out of gay relationships, gay people will rise to meet such expectations.

 

[Irvine511]

And these people vote

and that's where the ignorance is.

gay isn't something you do.

it's something you are.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I assume what she meant by that was do they makeout or something, I dunno. Maybe she has the stereotype that all gay men are having sex and making out all the time. Obviously you're gay all the time. She should have said yes, they are gay only when I come over-other than that they are straight Being gay=having sex according to that question I guess.

I give people leeway for things they haven't experienced and don't understand as long as they're not hateful and hurtful about it- yes stereotypes can be at play but sometimes even those aren't always rooted in hatred. And yes she is saying that being gay is doing and not who you are by that statement, I understand that. Maybe with a little more knowledge and experience she would think differently.

 

[BVS]

And these people vote

Don't you wish there was an ignorance test, kinda like an IQ test? And if you had a high enough ignorance score you couldn't vote...

 

[2861U2]

Yikes, a lot to respond to.

1. why do you choose to believe that gay people choose to be gay?
2. why are you willing to deny things like hospital visitation rights or sharing of medical benefits to gay domestic partners?
3. what is at threat if gay people were allowed to marry? how would this negatively impact you?

Fair questions.

1) Because, as was stated, we cannot predict who will be gay. I'm obviously not an expert on the homosexual experience, but I'm under the impression that people a) for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex or b) switch orientation due to bad experiences or relationships with the opposite sex. If I, right now, decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females, does that mean I was born gay or destined to be a homosexual? I'm not so sure.
2) I dont want to deny those things. The family in the story should have been able to visit the woman.
3) A gay couple getting married is not a direct threat to me. However, I dont follow the "do whatever you want as long as it doesnt effect me" mentality. I, because of my upbringing, believe that certain traditions need to be upheld and unchanged. Marriage being a man and a woman is one of my personal beliefs and values, just as "marriage is people who love each other" may be one of yours.

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Do you know what year the word homosexuality was first used? Where does the word 'homosexuality' get used in the Bible? And what was original translation?

The truth is, you have no clue about any of these things, do you?

No, sir, I never present myself as a historian. Do you know the answers to some of your questions? If so, please enlighten me. However, I can recognize homosexuality and the condemnation of it in the Bible when I read it.

You basically come off as a 19 year old that just repeats the rhetoric and hate that you were taught by your parents, Rush, or your minister; for your own knowledge of these subjects is horrible.

Again, not true. I have a firm grasp of many subjects, and others not so much. But like I said, I know what I believe. I think for myself. I value very much the wisdom of my pastors and my church and my family, and I draw conclusions from that. Your assessment of my ability to think is horribly misguided.

Unico, why is man/man relations as described in the Bible not considered homosexual in your eyes? As far as I know, there arent any "woman lusting after women" passages because it was already mentioned and condemned using the male pronoun.

 

[BVS]

all gay men are having sex and making out all the time.

If that were true, I may have to switch teams...

 

[deep]

If that were true, I may have to switch teams...

I know you are just joking

but, this supports the concept that one might - can choose

 

[phillyfan26]

1) Because, as was stated, we cannot predict who will be gay. I'm obviously not an expert on the homosexual experience, but I'm under the impression that people a) for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex or b) switch orientation due to bad experiences or relationships with the opposite sex. If I, right now, decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females, does that mean I was born gay or destined to be a homosexual? I'm not so sure.
2) I dont want to deny those things. The family in the story should have been able to visit the woman.
3) A gay couple getting married is not a direct threat to me. However, I dont follow the "do whatever you want as long as it doesnt effect me" mentality. I, because of my upbringing, believe that certain traditions need to be upheld and unchanged. Marriage being a man and a woman is one of my personal beliefs and values, just as "marriage is people who love each other" may be one of yours.

1) We cannot predict which children will be born with autism or mental retardation. Does that mean they choose to be that way?

Also, you cannot choose to be gay. You, as a heterosexual, are attracted to women in a way you cannot be to men. If you claimed to be gay, you would be lying to yourself and others.

2) OK, I agree.

3) You claim it does not affect you directly. In what way does it affect you indirectly? Would it really hurt you at all? Why is marriage being man/woman specific something you value?

 

[phillyfan26]

Unico, why is man/man relations as described in the Bible not considered homosexual in your eyes?

Again, I must ask you, have you read the posts on this subject by Ormus? He is the most knowledgeable in this forum on what the Bible is describing, and how it does not relate to modern homosexuality.

I will try to find them and link to them.

ETA: http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176964&perpage=15&pagenumber=15

Last post on the page.

 

[Irvine511]

1) Because, as was stated, we cannot predict who will be gay. I'm obviously not an expert on the homosexual experience, but I'm under the impression that people a) for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex or b) switch orientation due to bad experiences or relationships with the opposite sex. If I, right now, decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females, does that mean I was born gay or destined to be a homosexual? I'm not so sure.

yes, for whatever reason, mostly biological, some people -- around 5% of the population -- are attracted to the same sex.

now, stop and take a look at yourself. do you think you could ever have a relationship with a woman that was so bad, so terrible, that you'd one day decide that you're more interested in pectorals and penises than boobs and vaginas? can you see that EVER happening, just switching teams like that?

and the other thing i want to add is that the pure physical attraction is only one piece of the puzzle. i define a gay person is someone who is physically and emotionally attracted to someone of the same gender. while pensis and vaginas are a part of any relationship, or not, it's the emotional life of a gay person that so often gets overlooked, undervalued, and tossed aside. i see many gay people, men in particular, who actually have submerged their emotional lifes to such a degree that they get very little joy out of sexuality. pleasure, maybe, but not joy. that part of their life has been so devalued by society that it becomes meaningless and empty.


[q]2) I dont want to deny those things. The family in the story should have been able to visit the woman.[/q]



[q]3) A gay couple getting married is not a direct threat to me. However, I dont follow the "do whatever you want as long as it doesnt effect me" mentality. I, because of my upbringing, believe that certain traditions need to be upheld and unchanged. Marriage being a man and a woman is one of my personal beliefs and values, just as "marriage is people who love each other" may be one of yours.[/q]

so why seek to prevent me from living my life as you might live yours?

aren't you violating the "do unto others" rule?

 

[BVS]

I, because of my upbringing, believe that certain traditions need to be upheld and unchanged.

Well it was orignially defined as man and women of the same race, should we go back to banning interracial marriage because it was tradition?

No, sir, I never present myself as a historian. Do you know the answers to some of your questions? If so, please enlighten me. However, I can recognize homosexuality and the condemnation of it in the Bible when I read it.

No you can't, you've made that obvious. You recognize poor translations and interpretations of the Bible.

Here's a good website for you to start at:

http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Templat...ty&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=583

Again, not true. I have a firm grasp of many subjects, and others not so much. But like I said, I know what I believe. I think for myself. I value very much the wisdom of my pastors and my church and my family, and I draw conclusions from that. Your assessment of my ability to think is horribly misguided.

"I know what I believe", that phrase means very little to me. I met a man who was an admitted member of the Klan, he said the same exact thing to me.

Well if I'm misguided I hope you prove me wrong in the future, but I see a lot of "well Rush told me", "this is what my pastor says", "this is how I was raised" etc. This isn't thinking for oneself this is accepting what you are told. When presented with facts you've even come back and admitted you were wrong, or just simply ignored the facts. You've never presented facts to show the contrary.

Unico, why is man/man relations as described in the Bible not considered homosexual in your eyes? As far as I know, there arent any "woman lusting after women" passages because it was already mentioned and condemned using the male pronoun.

You've missed the point. The point Unico was trying to make is that the term 'homosexuality' never shows up in the Bible, until recent translations(very poor translations). Most translations only speak of man on man(and even these are misguided translations, see the link above) so how do lesbians fall into this category?

 

[joyfulgirl]

2) I dont want to deny those things. The family in the story should have been able to visit the woman.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Except that you would not have wanted to give them the legal right, through marriage, to be with her on her death bed?

3) I, because of my upbringing, believe that certain traditions need to be upheld and unchanged.

As one twice your age, I can say that I have re-evaluated my upbringing throughout my life and have changed my mind about quite a few things. Do you ever consider the possibility that it would be a good thing to update your values in light of information--i.e. FACTS--that contradict certain ideas and traditions you may have been raised with? My family, pastor, teachers, church members and others I respected as a young person turned out to be wrong about many things. They taught me what they understood to be true, but they were wrong about certain things. I didn't necessarily know that when I was 19. Do you think it's wise to trust the wisdom of those closest to you in light of hardcore evidence that indicates they're wrong? I, too, was raised in a Christian church and taught that homosexuality was wrong. Yet, when it turned out that the best teachers I ever had in high school were lesbians, I could no longer agree with my family and the church. The lesbian teachers were the most compassionate people, with the highest level of integrity, that I had encountered in my life at that point. Direct experience is sometimes greater than handed-down tradition.

 

[BVS]

I know you are just joking

but, this supports the concept that one might - can choose

I knew someone was going to bring that up...

But actually I think it supports the opposite. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that men couples have more sex than other couples. Just based on the fact that men are more physically oriented, and when you have two the likelyness of sex is probably more often. You have less of the "not right now I have a headache" factor. So if it was just based on sex, then homosexuality would be the way to go. But it's not, we can't make ourselves attracted to people, we just are.

*the above is just a tongue-in-cheek theory based on stereotypes.

 

[deep]

Yikes, a lot to respond to.



Fair questions.

1) Because, as was stated, we cannot predict who will be gay. I'm obviously not an expert on the homosexual experience, but I'm under the impression that people a) for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex or b) switch orientation due to bad experiences or relationships with the opposite sex. If I, right now, decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females, does that mean I was born gay or destined to be a homosexual? I'm not so sure.

how you break it down and describe things here is fuzzy, almost like one is choosing


This rarely is the case.


Do you think Mary Cheney, the Vice President's daughter, arrived at her homosexuality in this manner?

Also, the fact that some straight men in prison engage in homosexuality also muddies the choice issue.


But, I am certain that whatever is in your DNA that causes you to find the female form attractive, and the touch of a woman exciting and appealing is the same thing that same sex couples feel towards each other.
It truly is in their DNA.
I believe the overwhelming majority of gay people did not consider, or choose their orientation any more than you did.

Did you ever have thoughts like these?

"OK. I should start looking for a companion/ lover now.

The question, a woman or a man?"

Pros for a man,

1. We could share our clothes

2. Someone to go fishing and hunting with

3. I will never get stuck paying child support

4. I won't have to deal with monthly cycles



Wow, looks like there is some upside to this gay thing

Now,

Pros for a woman,

1. playbags

ok. I'm done,

Made my mind up. (or my DNA did)




edit to add

that you got it half right

the answer is

a. for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex

and "whatever reason" is their DNA or genes

 

[redhotswami]

Unico, why is man/man relations as described in the Bible not considered homosexual in your eyes? As far as I know, there arent any "woman lusting after women" passages because it was already mentioned and condemned using the male pronoun.

I've never said man/man relations were not homosexual But I'll clarify. The bible passages you're referring to explicity say man/man relations are sinful in those particular contexts. HOWEVER, it says nothing about woman/woman. The bible does not say it is a sin to be born homosexual, nor does it even define homosexuality. It talks about an Act. Between Men. How can you assume that women are condemned using the male pronoun? Given the context, it is specifically referring to men, so I'd have to disagree here based on this proof. Also, like I said, it says nothing about how homosexuals are sinners. It is talking about an act, not the people.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Just because scientists are not certain what combinations of genes cause homosexuality does not mean that they are unsure whether homosexuality is something a person is born with. It is. Your only defense really is the passages written in the Bible, and they are passages you have misinterpreted. There IS a difference between homosexuality of Biblical times, and that of modern day.

If the Bible stated some other fact was wrong, would you believe it? If it denied that there is a continent of Africa, would you take its word for it?

Development isn't 100% determined by genes, but I don't think that those who say it couldn't be genetic are actually being technical.

 

[A_Wanderer]

No, I do not believe you. I have read reports on the internet of scientists stating otherwise- that environment plays a role and that you cannot predict who will be gay. Those are some of the problems with your theory and insistance that being born gay is a fact. It might be, but it might not be. You all seem too eager to accept anything that science says.

I still fail to see how you think I am lying to myself.

"Science" doesn't say it as it is merely a system of investigation; it is the evidence that supports the notion that our sex drive is biologically based and that there is a spectrum of sexual behaviours (did you know that some ducks engage in necrophilia or that there is homosexual behaviour in other animals?). The problem is that the factors that play into it from our genes, hormones, development, in utero conditions ad infinitum don't lend well for a single deterministic factor that makes someone bent. But again how does it matter from the perspective of freedom; religious conservatives trumpet the importance of faith and freedom but at the same time seem to advocate things antiethical to liberty such as government interventions against homosexuality, censorship or pornography and religion in government. When you want to take your own biases and get the government to enforce them it is anti-freedom. nobody else has sovereignty over me than me and if that included something like a soul (highly improbably) then it isn't your to defend.

I don't think that your lying to yourself, I think that your belief system depends on not knowing or understanding competing viewpoints. If you start to reject parts of your theology then piece by piece you become less Christian; at least it isn't malicious.

 

[redhotswami]

I don't think that your lying to yourself, I think that your belief system depends on not knowing or understanding competing viewpoints.

dualism.
it is the primary stage in many cognitive development theories.

 

[yolland]

Did you ever have thoughts like these?
"OK. I should start looking for a companion/ lover now.
The question, a woman or a man?"
Pros for a man,
1. We could share our clothes
2. Someone to go fishing and hunting with
3. I will never get stuck paying child support
4. I won't have to deal with monthly cycles

Wow, looks like there is some upside to this gay thing

Now,
Pros for a woman,
1. playbags
ok. I'm done,
Made my mind up. (or my DNA did)

I hope you're joking...

 

[deep]

I kind of was going for a shallow (as in shallow Hal) or silly point

Did you ever consider choosing to be the opposite of your sexual orientation?


if one could choose his/ or her sexual orientation

same sex relationships would have many advantages

i think many of us have, close, long lasting same sex friendships

ask anyone
who is your best friend
and more than likely they will name someone of their sex

 

[yolland]

In my own case that happens not to be true, but fair enough, for more people than not it is, which of course is fine. I figured you were most likely being 'silly' for a reason, but it did kind of come across as "DNA puts a gun to your head and makes you settle for what's clearly a lesser choice for you" which IMO, any straight person who feels that way--and I know there are those who do--has some psychological issues they need to work on. I take your point though, sexual orientation and attraction is a powerful enough force that, if you're straight, it will drive you into relationships with the opposite sex even if you categorically hold them in some kind of contempt for whatever messed-up reasons. But what Irvine said is also true; without getting into one-dimensional essentialism about it, orientation does go beyond the appeal of the physical 'package,' there's an emotional component to the craving for a particular type of companionship as well, and anyone who fights that too much in themselves is likely to wind up miserable.

 

[joyfulgirl]

ask anyone
who is your best friend
and more than likely they will name someone of their sex

except me, whose best friend is a gay male--not at all uncommon

I loved your post about choosing your sexual orientation. You nailed it, IMO.

 

[maycocksean]

1) Because, as was stated, we cannot predict who will be gay. I'm obviously not an expert on the homosexual experience, but I'm under the impression that people a) for whatever reason are attracted to the same sex or b) switch orientation due to bad experiences or relationships with the opposite sex. If I, right now, decided to be gay after 19 years of attraction and relationships with females, does that mean I was born gay or destined to be a homosexual? I'm not so sure.

Speaking as a heterosexual, I cannot fathom being attracted to s another man. I just can't. And I could never imagine "switching" orientation. I know it's not very scientific or anything but that for me is HUGE evidence that homosexuality is not chosen. Anyone who thinks they can switch must either be homosexual or bisexual. I also think it's important to point out that when we talk about "born with" we should qualify that by pointing out that prepubescent children don't yet have the sexual inclinations that adults do anyway. The point is those attractions do start to take shape and gain strength around the time of puberty. Every gay person I've talked to says that they "always knew" even when they were living (or trying to live) as a straight person. I would guess gay posters are better able to speak to this, but I imagine extrapolating from my own experience as a straight person would be fairly accurate.

2) I dont want to deny those things. The family in the story should have been able to visit the woman.

Thanks for your response on that. I appreciate it.

3) A gay couple getting married is not a direct threat to me. However, I dont follow the "do whatever you want as long as it doesnt effect me" mentality. I, because of my upbringing, believe that certain traditions need to be upheld and unchanged. Marriage being a man and a woman is one of my personal beliefs and values, just as "marriage is people who love each other" may be one of yours.

Fair enough. So you would type this current debate over gay marriage as "whose values get to be enshrined in law?" and you're hoping your side wins and not the other? I suppose I can understand that ,but wouldn't you think as a Christian, that you would want people to be free to make these types of moral choices between them and God right? There ARE moral areas after all in which, at least today, the government doesn't get involved--for example adultery. I think there's no debate for most of us as to the "wrongness" or "rightness" of adultery, and yet no one's advocating that the rights of adulterers should be taken away.



Here's the thing: You can still be a Bible-believing Christian who has an a real and meaningful relationship with Jesus, and change your views and even challenge what you've been taught or always believed. It's scary, granted. And there are many people who don't have the guts to do it, but it can and should be done. Getting out of your comfort zone, living where sometimes the only thing you're sure of is the grace of Jesus, can be daunting but I think it's worth it. I wish I could say I were braver in taking that leap of faith. . .I'm not always as much as I'd like to be, but I'm trying.

Have you read the book What's So Amazing About Grace? by Philip Yancey? Excellent book by a solid Christian (evangelical even) author that I think you'd really appreciate.

I hope that you won't be just a tourist here. . .dropping in to see what the "liberals and secular humanists" are up to before going back to being around like-minded folks who will reinforce , reassure, and support "what you've always believed." Stick around. Pray. Stay in the Word. Listen. Express your views as thoughtfully as you can. Take the heat. Keep thinking. Remember these four words "I could be wrong."