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Old 03-24-2010, 10:28 PM   #541
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Oh, I'll admit that in public. The bill signed into law by the president does not make government the single payer for all health care. Nor does the bill make all providers government employees as you'd find in England.
Thank you, my friend!!

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Now will you admit that the only reason we have EuropeanCare Lite is that you didn't have enough votes in congress for the real thing.
I can't do this. I have never, ever supported the real thing, and have been very open about that here. The real thing regarding European care has its good points but ultimately leads to rationing, waiting lines and less off people paying for the health care of the wealthiest people.

So "I" had actually had plenty of votes in Congress for what I wanted. Same with Obama, Biden, Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Chris Dodd, Harry Reid, Steny Hoyer, John Spratt, Brad Ellsworth of your state, etc. You are making my point here- European socialism is hardly the desire of this Democratic Congress. Obama is not settling for this because he did not get Sweden's system. Remember, Obama's original plan said nothing of the public option, never mind Euro care, at least half of house Democrats were relieved the P.O. was gone, and the Senate NEVER had much use for it!


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And will you admit that the 60 members of the Progressive Caucus in the House (including Dennis Kucinich) that pledged in a letter that they would not support a bill without a "robust public option," were persuaded to do just that with the understanding this bill is but a "foot in the door." A point repeated by liberals all this week on TV and even here in FYM.
Sure, I'll admit that insofar as they were persuaded to drop the public option as a condition for their support of the bill. However, do not confuse the public option(which I never supported either and have been very open about here) with European care. It would have been administered by the government, but no one would be required to use it, it would have been self financed by consumer premiums, not a compulsory health care payroll tax. The minimum standard of care would have required that the plan cover many procedures that are routinely the cause of waiting lists in Europe. The list goes on.

I really do not think the "foot in the door" rhetoric is any more than window dressing and red meat. The essential points of reform are there and as time goes on, it will become clear that this bill accomplishes them without a public option.

While they may say that they got assurances to pursue in the future a public option, etc there was no quid pro quo of any kind. The news has to give us the PG version, of course, but ultimately, these people were dragged into a room by Rahm Emmanuel, told to stop being little babies, told to stop making the perfect the enemy of the good, stop subjecting everything to a ridgid ideological test, and told that they were fuc**n dead to the White House not to mention on the wrong side of history if they opposed coverage for 32 million, increased competition, lower costs and an end to arbitrary b.s. insurance company practices.

Indy, I will give you everything I own if a public option even comes up again in the next few years, never mind gets passed. Anything even remotely like Europe will not happen ever, period. Our political culture in the US is way too deeply ingrained, and that is fine by me.

The Congressional Progressive caucus 60 as a whole objected to the lack of a public option. Of those 60, I highly doubt that any more than Kucinich plus 8 or 9 are hard core single payer advocates. Single payer, not the public option, is the European test.

The bottom line is 60 nowhere near makes up a majority of Democratic congresspeople, it would be like saying the Republican Liberty Caucus speaks for the Republicans on issues like drugs and terrorism.

A public option(which is ineffective, but nothing to worry about regarding European tendencies) did not even make it in a heavily Democratic caucus, never mind single payer or European health care light. Your points about it being all over TV and FYM are well taken, but how much noise did progressives make in both places throughout 2009 about how the bill the President signed would absolutely have a robust public option? More wishful thinking than anything else.

Note to my Progressive forum friends: The public option, while not the danger that the right thinks it is, would have been completely ineffective at reducing costs with 1% of the market. We have regulations on health insurance companies now, they can't just do whatever they want, we have competition, we have made it easier for small business, all without a public option that would require a bunch of new gov't employees and administrators to run. Sounds good to me. This was never essential to reform.
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Old 03-25-2010, 03:25 AM   #542
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I can't do this. I have never, ever supported the real thing, and have been very open about that here. The real thing regarding European care has its good points but ultimately leads to rationing, waiting lines and less off people paying for the health care of the wealthiest people.
Could you please explain what you mean with 'European care'? Europe consists of different countries with different health care systems. So a phrase like 'European care' is confusing to say the least.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:35 AM   #543
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looks like the gop continues to show their rage. bill is back to the senate to vote.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:07 AM   #544
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the leaders of the GOP need to denounce and reject the growing instances of domestic terrorism against members of Congress.

if they do not, they themselves are terrorists, since we do not distinguish between those who commit terror and those who enable it.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:35 AM   #545
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You know they won't.

I'm afraid someone is going to get seriously hurt, or killed. And wouldn't be shocked if even then the GOP won't back down from their scare tactics.

Just amazes me what one black man can do to fire up the crazies in this country. I know the Dems and some of the grass root parties said some mean things about Bush, but i can't recall any acts of violence towards GOP or their families.
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Old 03-25-2010, 04:31 PM   #546
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"After I signed the bill, I looked around to see if there were any asteroids falling, some cracks opening up in the earth," Obama said, adding it turned out to be a nice day and "birds were chirping, folks were strolling down the mall."
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:08 PM   #547
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Frum sanity. not appreciated
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:10 PM   #548
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Could you please explain what you mean with 'European care'? Europe consists of different countries with different health care systems. So a phrase like 'European care' is confusing to say the least.
Yes. Sure. Sorry about that.

I understand there are nuances and differences between health care systems across different countries.

I was responding to Indy, who likes to lump every European health care system together. They all pretty much have single payer and government administration as a common thread, and that is what he and I have been discussing for months now. Indy has accused me in the past of being a long winded, incoherent poster, so I did not want to post a long examination of the differences between health care in Britain, France, Sweden, Netherlands, Germany and the list goes on.

I just made an oversimplification, which works for comparing it to the US health care bill as we were speaking of single payer/gov't administration versus not. Correct me if I am wrong, every advanced European country has a government provided single payer health care system?

I was not attempting to say that the continent had one health care program.
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:25 PM   #549
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With my tens of thousands of dollars of crippling college debt, it's nice that my parents can still pay for my health insurance for a few years afterwards. I appreciate that move.
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:30 PM   #550
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Correct me if I am wrong, every advanced European country has a government provided single payer health care system?
Nope. If I understand the single payer system correctly, then the Netherlands doesn't have it. There's no pool of money out of which all the costs are paid (administered by the government). Instead, it's a dual system where everyone has insurance from a private insurer.

Not a subject so obscure, or Wikipedia has an article on it (including some perceived drawbacks): Healthcare in the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:49 PM   #551
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This is the direction the GOP should be going, rather than the talk radio/tea party route... It's a shame they ostracize the few intelligent voices they have in the party.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:30 PM   #552
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Nope. If I understand the single payer system correctly, then the Netherlands doesn't have it. There's no pool of money out of which all the costs are paid (administered by the government). Instead, it's a dual system where everyone has insurance from a private insurer.

Not a subject so obscure, or Wikipedia has an article on it (including some perceived drawbacks): Healthcare in the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


as a Dutch person, you might enjoy this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...uropean-t.html
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:38 PM   #553
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I like Frum. It's a shame he's being kicked to the curb.

These things always move in cycles. Dems and Republicans have gone through periods of "big tent" expansion, followed by periods of contraction. Right now the Dems are expanding. If history is to be believed, at some point they will sink beneath the weight of balancing too many contrasting ideologies, and the Republicans will capitalize on the opportunity. Conservatism was the dominant ideology for a quarter-century (even Clinton was essentially a centrist); now it's the Democrats' turn.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:40 PM   #554
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I agree with a lot of that...
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:45 PM   #555
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Nope. If I understand the single payer system correctly, then the Netherlands doesn't have it. There's no pool of money out of which all the costs are paid (administered by the government). Instead, it's a dual system where everyone has insurance from a private insurer.

Not a subject so obscure, or Wikipedia has an article on it (including some perceived drawbacks): Healthcare in the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ok, thank you! Learn something new every day....

Again, Indy was using European systems as a stand in for single payer, government run systems, which many are. He generalized, so I generalized for the purposes of simplicity.

I did not/will not ever claim to have some vast knowledge of how any European country's health system works.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:57 PM   #556
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I did not/will not ever claim to have some vast knowledge of how any European country's health system works.


but, if you do that, how will you be able to casually dismiss them all with sweeping generalizations and bold assertions about the superiority of America in everything ever?
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:14 PM   #557
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I've seen the documentary about other nation's health systems. It's pretty interesting and informative. And it puts a huge spotlight on just how much the US has fucked up (until now).

Frum was dead on about the Republicans: no compromise attempts whatsoever. Bitching about the lack of compromises? Sure. But actual attempts? Never.

Honestly, the deal ended up being Obama negotiating with Democrats. It's not his fault that the GOP turned their back on attempting to get something done.
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:36 PM   #558
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Correct me if I am wrong, every advanced European country has a government provided single payer health care system?
I'm pretty sure you're wrong - don't Germany and France have multi-payer? And Switzerland isn't single payer either as far as I recall.
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:41 PM   #559
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Indeed, fully 'socialist' health care systems are the exception rather than the rule in Europe. It is mainly a mix of private and public.
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:53 PM   #560
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It doesn't make sense to me to have such a tax that eliminates jobs and sends them overseas

Beware the ‘jobs killer’

Companies threaten to quit state over new tax on medical devices

By Jay Fitzgerald | Thursday, March 25, 2010 | Home - BostonHerald.com | Business & Markets

A dire warning from Bay State medical-device companies that a new sales tax in the federal health-care law could force their plants - and thousands of jobs - out of the country has rattled Gov. Deval Patrick, a staunch backer of the law and pal President Obama.

“This bill is a jobs killer,” said Ernie Whiton, chief financial officer of Chelmsford’s Zoll Medical Corp., which employs about 650 people in Massachusetts. Many of those employees work in Zoll’s local manufacturing facility making heart defibrillators.

“We could be forced to (move) manufacturing overseas if we can’t pass along these costs to our customers,” said Whiton.

The threat - echoed by others in the critical Massachusetts industry - had the governor vowing to intervene to block the sales tax impact.

“I am obviously concerned about the medical device burden here on the commonwealth, which has a very robust industry around medical devices,” Patrick said yesterday.

He ticked off his past support for the life-sciences industry. But he added that “you better believe I will work to make modifications” if the bill is found to be an “impediment to that industry.”

Medical-device makers - part of the life-sciences sector that’s been one of only a few fields creating jobs during the recession - are warning that the new sales tax could cripple many companies, especially small firms with razor-thin profit margins.

Under the legislation signed by Obama, medical-device companies would be slapped with a sales tax of about 2.9 percent to raise about $2.2 billion a year to pay for the health-care overhaul. Under a companion “reconciliation” bill now being debated in the Senate, the tax is set at 2.3 percent and would start Jan. 1, 2013.

Most political observers expect the reconciliation bill to pass - with the 2.3 percent medical-devices tax. The tax exempts eyeglasses, contact lenses, hearing aids and all products generally found in drug stores, from bandages to toothbrushes.

But it hits more sophisticated medical instruments and equipment, a specialty of hundreds of firms in Massachusetts.

“They’re beating up on the guys doing the best to create jobs,” said Tom Taylor, chairman of the Massachusetts Medical Devices Industry Council and founder of Roush Life Sciences.

U.S. Sen. Scott Brown (R-Mass.) is pressing for elimination of the proposed sales tax, as part of a larger, last-ditch effort by Republicans to stall specific aspects of the historic $940 billion health-care overhaul signed into law on Tuesday by Obama.

“With unemployment in my state near 10 percent, placing a tax on medical devices is the absolute last thing we should be doing right now,” said Brown in a statement, as he filed an amendment that would repeal the tax.

Despite his concerns, Patrick stood by health care reform yesterday, saying the law is “very good for the people of America and the people of the commonwealth.”
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