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Old 11-11-2009, 10:26 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Like the Huffington Post !! where mrsspringsteen found her article?
Like the AMA or AARP? Or "mainstream news" sources such as Newsweek, Time, The Washington Post or New York Times?

if you want to believe that "all" news is biased, or that they all contain equal amounts of bias, then you have truly succumbed to the poison of having too many media options. self-selection -- where you only hear what you want to hear, and when what you want to hear gives you reasons to discredit that which seems difficult to reconcile -- is an unfortunate thing, and though we all do it to some extent, i think you're taking it a bit far here, equating such middle-of-the-road publications like Time and Newsweek (or the two best newspapers in the country) to the source you cited.

i'll ask again -- what other sources can you point to that back up your earlier claims?
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:27 PM   #182
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what about killing Iraqis and Afghanis?
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:55 PM   #183
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wrong thread cupcake.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:58 PM   #184
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wrong thread cupcake.


not quite, sweet pea, it's more that i don't want my tax dollars to support unnecessary wars of choice predicated upon faulty intelligence and managed by fools and idiots.

surely that's a stronger, more moral case than enabling a woman to choose when she gets pregnant.
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:32 AM   #185
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:53 AM   #186
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Oh yes, another unbiased "truthful" approach...
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:57 AM   #187
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You can't take *any* different perspective that doesn't completely align with yours, huh?

You either do this: or that: .

<>
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:22 AM   #188
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You can't take *any* different perspective that doesn't completely align with yours, huh?
I take in all perspectives. It's just that this one isn't saying anything new, the only difference in this vs many of the Tea Party crowd is that she admits real reform needs to be done, but then that's when she starts lying.

When it comes to this issue, I haven't heard many people who really know what they are talking about. Politicians on both sides don't know what they are talking about, I saw a debate between Howard Dean and somebody the other day and the Republican brought up the state border issue and Dean's response was weak, all he had to say are that mandates are different from state to state so insurance packages wouldn't work unless there are national changes in mandates. The only difference is that the Dems are on the right side of this issue, I just wish they could get someone who really knew what they were talking about. The Republican side is clueless, they have no insight whatsoever as to the current situation so any attempt they make to "reform" is laughable. The Dem side is slightly less clueless but they are doing what's right.

I have not seen ONE conservative approach that makes sense, they all leave out huge portions of the population and really only work for those that are relatively healthy. And God bless him INDY is the only one who has even tried laying out his answer, I don't think it works for anyone except those that are in his position, but at least he tried. No other conservative has even tried.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:00 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I take in all perspectives. It's just that this one isn't saying anything new, the only difference in this vs many of the Tea Party crowd is that she admits real reform needs to be done, but then that's when she starts lying.

When it comes to this issue, I haven't heard many people who really know what they are talking about. Politicians on both sides don't know what they are talking about, I saw a debate between Howard Dean and somebody the other day and the Republican brought up the state border issue and Dean's response was weak, all he had to say are that mandates are different from state to state so insurance packages wouldn't work unless there are national changes in mandates. The only difference is that the Dems are on the right side of this issue, I just wish they could get someone who really knew what they were talking about. The Republican side is clueless, they have no insight whatsoever as to the current situation so any attempt they make to "reform" is laughable. The Dem side is slightly less clueless but they are doing what's right.

I have not seen ONE conservative approach that makes sense, they all leave out huge portions of the population and really only work for those that are relatively healthy. And God bless him INDY is the only one who has even tried laying out his answer, I don't think it works for anyone except those that are in his position, but at least he tried. No other conservative has even tried.
You forgot to mention in your rant that she is European and that the proposed plan mirrors Europe's where she lives, and it sucks compared to what the USA currently has.

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Old 11-12-2009, 10:42 AM   #190
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You forgot to mention in your rant that she is European and that the proposed plan mirrors Europe's where she lives, and it sucks compared to what the USA currently has.

<>


there's one European who agrees with you. what about the other 350m of them? do you think most French people or most Germans or most Belgians would give up their health care for the American system?
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:08 AM   #191
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there's one European who agrees with you. what about the other 350m of them? do you think most French people or most Germans or most Belgians would give up their health care for the American system?
Not after generations of brain washed complicity and not having had the experience of the US' health care first hand-no.

I think the girl in the video gave a fresh perspective.

So there.

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Old 11-12-2009, 11:11 AM   #192
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Not after generations of brain washed complicity and not having had the experience of socialized health care first hand-no.
Might be an interesting statement for you to ponder.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:03 PM   #193
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You forgot to mention in your rant that she is European and that the proposed plan mirrors Europe's where she lives, and it sucks compared to what the USA currently has.

<>
Oh, she's European, that completely escaped me, thanks for clearing that up...

There are still ignorant Europeans, take a look at their website, for being European the majority of their uninformed rants are about US Democrats.

And if you knew anything about the plan you would know it doesn't "mirror" Europe's. But like I said none of you guys know anything about it... you're just towing party lines.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:19 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i'll ask again -- what other sources can you point to that back up your earlier claims?
FactCheck.org: What is the percentage of total personal bankruptcies caused by health care bills?

A few pull quotes I found:
Quote:
It's worth noting, though, that the figure from the Harvard study includes those who lost their jobs or significant income due to illness – even if they didn't cite mounting health care bills as a direct cause of their bankruptcy.
Quote:
It's possible that at least some of those who cited medical reasons had debt from other causes, a history of not paying their bills or other complicating issues that led to bankruptcy filing – not just health care. Health costs also could have been the final straw after a long, bruising battle with finances.
Quote:
Buried in the study is the fact that only 27 percent of the surveyed debtors had unreimbursed medical expenses exceeding $1,000 over the course of the two years prior to their bankruptcy. ... Nobody likes to pay $1,000 in medical expenses even when they get two years to do it in, but for most Americans (particularly those with enough at stake to seek the protection of bankruptcy) it is not catastrophic.
Quote:
But a 2008 study by a business professor at the University of California, Davis, said that while medical issues certainly caused bankruptcy, the bigger problem was that families spent beyond their means, leaving them vulnerable to even minor disruptions. "Although our study supports the notion that adverse events contribute to personal bankruptcy filings, the findings emphasize that excessive consumption probably contributes more to the recent increase in personal bankruptcy filing." That study looked at filings in Delaware in 2003.
Now, I can't help it if you want your talking point more than the truth.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:42 PM   #195
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That is the worse "fact check" report I've ever read...

Look at the language:

Quote:
It's possible that at least some of those who cited medical reasons had debt from other causes
That's like saying, "it's possible that at least some of the conservatives polled that day were drunk and that's why they voted the way they did". Speculation does not play a role in a "fact check".

Quote:
Nobody likes to pay $1,000 in medical expenses
Neither does injected opinion.


Quote:
But a 2008 study by a business professor at the University of California, Davis, said that while medical issues certainly caused bankruptcy, the bigger problem was that families spent beyond their means, leaving them vulnerable to even minor disruptions. "Although our study supports the notion that adverse events contribute to personal bankruptcy filings, the findings emphasize that excessive consumption probably contributes more to the recent increase in personal bankruptcy filing." That study looked at filings in Delaware in 2003.
And whereas this is probably true to a point, how did they measure it? What is considered "beyond their means"? I would say the majority of Americans, even those that save are vulnerable to disruptions, it doesn't mean they are living beyond their means. But I just can't take a "fact check" seriously when they say "excessive consumption PROBABLY contributes to the recent...".

What a joke.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:45 PM   #196
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thank you for pointing out a good source, but i don't think the article is saying what it is you wish that it said. it's pointing out certain issues it has with the Harvard study, but nowhere does it say that medical costs aren't the biggest cause of bankruptcies in the US, nor do it make comparisons with other nations that have more socialized health care. it does make a few distinctions i found useful, like the following:


Quote:
It's possible that at least some of those who cited medical reasons had debt from other causes, a history of not paying their bills or other complicating issues that led to bankruptcy filing – not just health care. Health costs also could have been the final straw after a long, bruising battle with finances.

The study did note that those in the major medical issues group were "16 percent less likely than other debtors to cite trouble managing money as a cause of their bankruptcy." But in the end, the study relies mainly on people being honest. Since these results are self-reported, people could blame money troubles on their medical bills without justification.
Quote:
In fact, the study said that the out-of-pocket costs cited by those interviewed were "often below levels that are commonly labeled catastrophic." The authors hypothesized that other related factors, such as the loss of a job, helped push families into bankruptcy: "Presumably, such costs were often ruinous because of concomitant income loss or because the need for costly care persisted over several years."

When the study was released, another bankruptcy expert backed it up, to some degree. A 1996 study by the American Bankruptcy Institute found 57 percent of filers said medical problems were a primary cause of their bankruptcy, according to a Feb. 2005 Associated Press report. However, Jeff Morris, an ABI scholar, told the AP that respondents were more likely to point to other root causes: easy access to credit, loss of work and bad financial management. An ABI spokesman told us the group doesn't have more recent statistics on why consumers file for bankruptcy.


so it seems that you might be able to dispute the 50% number, but to call it a "myth" inmplies a sweeping dismissal of that claim that's incorrect.the truth remains -- people go bankrupt because of medical bills. and i will point to myself. i've paid at least $15,000 out of pocket on my medical issue, and i only have a chronic condition that i must manage with medication and check-ups. i don't have cancer, i don't know what people do when they have that. do people in the Netherlands go bankrupt because they have cancer, even if they live beyond their means? and does beyond your means include trying to pay your insanely high premiums?
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:37 PM   #197
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so it seems that you might be able to dispute the 50% number,
Which is my only point. The 50% number, like 47 million uninsured, is crisis mongering. Healthcare's equivalent to dying polar bears.
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but to call it a "myth" implies a sweeping dismissal of that claim that's incorrect.the truth remains -- people go bankrupt because of medical bills.
Said as much a few posts ago. I know several people in financial trouble due to medical bills. (racers mostly) And I feel for them, but some people do live beyond their means and eventually find themselves unable to absorb an unforeseen expensive, which often can be medical in nature. Others simply roll the dice and don't purchase insurance.

As I say, those are sad cases but let's not dump those in with people who have insurance pulled out from under them by unscrupulous insurance companies or have conditions so expensive that they use up all their benefits or can't buy insurance because of preexisting conditions.

Let's not make victims out of people who aren't simply for political gain.

Quote:
and i will point to myself. i've paid at least $15,000 out of pocket on my medical issue, and i only have a chronic condition that i must manage with medication and check-ups. i don't have cancer, i don't know what people do when they have that. do people in the Netherlands go bankrupt because they have cancer, even if they live beyond their means? and does beyond your means include trying to pay your insanely high premiums?
The question you should also ask. Would they have received the same level of expeditious care as you received here? Let's be careful and not lose what's good about our care to fix what isn't.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:12 PM   #198
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europe has a healthcare system?
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:18 PM   #199
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Let's be careful and not lose what's good about our care to fix what isn't.
Why can't we strive for both?
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:24 PM   #200
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Which is my only point. The 50% number, like 47 million uninsured, is crisis mongering. Healthcare's equivalent to dying polar bears.

but none of this means that there aren't shockingly high levels of bankruptcies that don't exist in other countries, that the 47m uninsured might fluctuate or go down to 40m or 30m, but a big problem remains, no? and polar bears are dying because the ice caps are melting, even if this particular issue is magnified because of the emotional pull of the image of a starving mother and cubs trying to swim to the next ice floe.

there is a crisis here, the issue seems to be what to do about it, and i don't think you've proved anything to the contrary.




Quote:
The question you should also ask. Would they have received the same level of expeditious care as you received here? Let's be careful and not lose what's good about our care to fix what isn't.

i received care when i lived in Belgium for strep throat. my care was excellent -- i saw a doctor immediately, no waiting, he gave me a thorough examination, wrote a prescription, i walked down the block to fill it, and i then took the receipt and mailed it back to whatever government agency, and 2 weeks later i got a refund for the price of the prescription.

i don't want to comment too much on my care in here, other than to say that it was generally excellent and generally quite expensive. based upon my two experiences -- though they are not directly comparable -- there was no difference in care, and the Belgian system appeared to operate more smoothly.
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