MANDATORY health insurance, part 2

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And now Pelosi is even moving away from the vaunted "up or down" House vote.

Any thoughts on this?
 
And now Pelosi is even moving away from the vaunted "up or down" House vote.

Any thoughts on this?


what percent of Health Care is paid by the government now?

what percent was paid in 1993?

what do you think will happen if nothing is done now?

has reconciliation been used before?

That is what you are referring to as the not using 'up and down' vote.
 
That is what you are referring to as the not using 'up and down' vote.

It's the Administration that's referred to the "up or down" vote ad nauseam. And now even that's in question, so it's on to the next gimmick for this stinker.

So don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, deep :lol:

I don't subscribe to 'something is better than nothing', not on this one.
 
This can't be true. We all know you Canadians have to sit on waiting lists for months for any kind of treatment. I bet you came across the border and got your daughter treated in the US. Don't try to fool us, missy! :angry:





(I hope your daughter doesn't require surgery and heals quickly.)

Ha, yeah, we're an hour or so from Buffalo, but no, didn't need to go that route.

And thanks! No surgery required, thank goodness. A cast up to her knee for 8 weeks, and no weight on it at all for that time. And we both get to be home tonight to watch Lost. :relief: ;)
 
It's the Administration that's referred to the "up or down" vote ad nauseam. And now even that's in question, so it's on to the next gimmick for this stinker.

So don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, deep :lol:

I don't subscribe to 'something is better than nothing', not on this one.

The party of NO.

NO solutions. NO answers.

And every time someone asks you, INDY or others any questions we get NOthing.
 
And every time someone asks you, INDY or others any questions we get NOthing.

How the hell can you say that? Go back through pt 1 and tell me I haven't offered what, imo, are health care delivery solutions. Now maybe you don't agree that reforming malpractice, giving individuals the same tax breaks that corporations get when purchasing HC insurance, removing artificial obstacles to free-market insurance competition, and returning purchasing power to the individual will lower cost allowing more Americans to access to the system. Maybe you don't believe we have enough government programs to get HC to the poor. Maybe you don't believe charity and volunteerism are alive and well in America. Maybe you really do think health care is a right to be paid for by income redistribution and HC decisions are best managed from Washington D.C. rather than the family table.
Fine, we have a fundamental disagreements. But don't say other solutions don't exist and haven't been presented here just because in your mind they won't work.
 
Now maybe you don't agree that reforming malpractice, giving individuals the same tax breaks that corporations get when purchasing HC insurance, removing artificial obstacles to free-market insurance competition, and returning purchasing power to the individual will lower cost allowing more Americans to access to the system.

Malpractice does not belong in a healthcare bill, yes I believe something should be done, but I like MOST with any kind of law background realize this really is a seperate issue.

Removing "artificial obstacles", I've shown you and Bluer White specifically several times each that these obstacles are not artificial, and not one counter argument. You ignore and then bring it up a week later hoping maybe no one noticed.

"Returning purchasing power to the individual", quite a broad statement. Sounds good, but no one has shown me how it works, or when was the last time it even really existed except for the rich?

Maybe you don't believe we have enough government programs to get HC to the poor.

Oh, this is a new one, I'd really like to see you explain this.

Maybe you don't believe charity and volunteerism are alive and well in America. Maybe you really do think health care is a right to be paid for by income redistribution and HC decisions are best managed from Washington D.C. rather than the family table.

Once again platitudes and solutions that only work for a select few. Charity will not help anything long term. You know that.

Don't kid yourself, family tables are not making the HC decisions now, I've shown you this time and time again as well.

Fine, we have a fundamental disagreements. But don't say other solutions don't exist and haven't been presented here just because in your mind they won't work.

It's not only that they don't work, they only work for small groups or fix tiny problems, and the rest are just nice slogans; this is not a matter of belief. There have been no real solutions. My point is that they've only been "solutions" of diversion, nothing real. The right wouldn't even be considering healthcare if it wasn't for Obama and the Dems having control, you'd ignore for the rest of your existence if you could because the bottom line is, it doesn't effect you.
 
Malpractice does not belong in a healthcare bill, yes I believe something should be done, but I like MOST with any kind of law background realize this really is a seperate issue.
“Here is why tort reform is not in the bill. When you go to pass a really enormous bill like that the more stuff you put in, the more enemies you make, right? And the reason why tort reform is not in the bill is because the people who wrote it did not want to take on the trial lawyers in addition to everybody else they were taking on, and that is the plain and simple truth. Now, that’s the truth.”
-- Howard Dean, Aug 2009

"Returning purchasing power to the individual", quite a broad statement. Sounds good, but no one has shown me how it works, or when was the last time it even really existed except for the rich?
50 years ago 1/2 of healthcare costs were paid out of pocket by the patient. Today that number is less than 10% with the government being the 3rd party purchaser of half of all healthcare bought in this country. You don't see how government might be the cause of our current problem and not the solution?
Once again platitudes and solutions that only work for a select few. Charity will not help anything long term. You know that.
But forced charity through higher taxes on citizens and underpaying HC providers will work long term?
Don't kid yourself, family tables are not making the HC decisions now, I've shown you this time and time again as well.
Well maybe if we give them more, not less, choices BVS.

The right wouldn't even be considering healthcare if it wasn't for Obama and the Dems having control, you'd ignore for the rest of your existence if you could because the bottom line is, it doesn't effect you.
If you knew where, and what kind of work I do, you wouldn't say that. But it's the same tired, demogogic Democratic equation. Being against more government mandates, more government bureaucracy, more government spending and debt = not caring.

Only it's not working anymore is it BVS?
 
“Here is why tort reform is not in the bill. When you go to pass a really enormous bill like that the more stuff you put in, the more enemies you make, right? And the reason why tort reform is not in the bill is because the people who wrote it did not want to take on the trial lawyers in addition to everybody else they were taking on, and that is the plain and simple truth. Now, that’s the truth.”
-- Howard Dean, Aug 2009
Howard Dean isn't a very informed man about this subject, I'll be the first to admit that I've seen him debate this and he doesn't have the facts.

50 years ago 1/2 of healthcare costs were paid out of pocket by the patient. Today that number is less than 10% with the government being the 3rd party purchaser of half of all healthcare bought in this country. You don't see how government might be the cause of our current problem and not the solution?
There are about a hundred reasons for this, but why don't you tell me how government has risen obesity, made people excercise less, raised the costs of materials, raised the salaries of doctors, increased carcinogens, and made insurance companies more of a collective unit rather than a competitive one. This should be fun.



But forced charity through higher taxes on citizens and underpaying HC providers will work long term?
You call it charity, I call it life :shrug: But then again we found out recently that Jesus is a communist. Thank you Glenn.

Well maybe if we give them more, not less, choices BVS.
So you're willing to dismantle insurance companies? So your solution is once again screw those that need long term or continuous help, but give the healthy and the wealthy more choice?

If you knew where, and what kind of work I do, you wouldn't say that. But it's the same tired, demogogic Democratic equation. Being against more government mandates, more government bureaucracy, more government spending and debt = not caring.

Then why is it you don't know why insurnace can't be sold over state lines? Why is it you don't know that there isn't enough for the poor to be insured? Why is it you don't understand that saving accounts aren't going to work for someone who needs continuous care? Why is it you don't know that insurance companies are already a collective unit?

Why haven't the Republicans offered anything unless it was counter "solution", never a priority?
 
Ha, yeah, we're an hour or so from Buffalo, but no, didn't need to go that route. [/B]

Maybe it's just me, but damn, I hear a song in there. "Sleeping the winter down in Buffalo..." *

And thanks! No surgery required, thank goodness. A cast up to her knee for 8 weeks, and no weight on it at all for that time. And we both get to be home tonight to watch Lost. :relief: ;)

That's good news. Hope the 8 weeks passes quickly. I bet she'll have plenty of cat company to comfort her. :lol:





* it's not supposed to mean anything to anyone else. Just indra being indra. :)
 
Maybe you don't believe charity and volunteerism are alive and well in America.

It's really sad that those in poverty and low income situations are made to rely on "charity" to access even a mediocre standard of health care, when in many other countries (and we manage it just fine, why can't the supposedly greatest nation in the world do it?) it's a right of all citizens, regardless of employment situation or income level.

But it's okay to demean them further. They're only poor people. They're obviously mismanaging their lives, and as such, they're not as deserving. Make them jump through hoops and beg for it!
 
right now Health Care has only 160 yes votes to 207 no votes

they need 216 to prevail

can they get 56 more yes votes in 3 days?

or will only 9 more no votes kill it?

The GOP has the advantage, can Obama and Pelosi pull it off????

Who has courage?: House health-care votes


OK,

since I posted this 20 hours ago the vote has changed
it is now: 167 yes votes to 207 no votes

that is a pick up of 7 for Obama/ Pelosi

to 0 for GOP/ Limbaugh / Beck / Tea Partiers * ( I thought public opinion and momentum was with this side?)

Check vote count here : House health-care votes

*
capt.ad87fb78c43a420393cff15372ef099b-ad87fb78c43a420393cff15372ef099b-0.jpg
 
Not sure about the source of your numbers (ie. seems like there is a big discrepancy between it and some other places) but latest from Bloomberg:

March 19 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. House Democrats, who cleared a big hurdle in their effort to overhaul the health-care system by producing compromise legislation, are picking up fresh support for a showdown vote this weekend.

Democrats need about six more votes from House members to pass the 10-year, $940 billion bill, Obama administration officials said today. President Barack Obama and Democratic leaders aim to sway some in a pool of 14 or 15 undecided lawmakers to get to the 216 votes needed to pass the measure, according to the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

“We are going to have the votes, when the roll is called,” House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer told reporters today. A vote is scheduled for March 21, leaders said.
 
I don't know how much padding is going on - some to be sure, I'm just saying that the conventional wisdom is closer to this:

Betsy Markey Becomes Third Confirmed No-Yes Vote; Childers a No | FDL News Desk

ie. the WaPo is being extremely conservative, which is probably factually 100% but doesn't reflect the reality on the ground.

This bill will almost certainly pass (not that I think it's particularly inspiring).
 
Markey is included in the 167 yes votes.

After reading your post, I went to Bloomberg and read all the recent 'yes' votes they listed, all were included in the 167 yes votes.


I thouhgt WaPo was missing some, I couldn't find any :shrug:

I don't see why a Congressman would want to have 'riled up' tea partiers calling and picketing his office to sway an undecided vote, it it has been decided. :shrug:

However uninspiring this bill is, that last thing we need is a continuation of "hands off" health care. Private sector profiteers going completely unchecked.

If this is as bad as the GOP claims, the public will hate it.

Then why is the GOP not getting out of the way and letting the Dems commit suicide?
 
However uninspiring this bill is, that last thing we need is a continuation of "hands off" health care. Private sector profiteers going completely unchecked.

If this is as bad as the GOP claims, the public will hate it.

Then why is the GOP not getting out of the way and letting the Dems commit suicide?

This Bill is a start, there is a long way to go, but that's the state of the USA - much like gay marriage, this will take decades to get to where it should be (if ever).

Most of the initial things that will kick in by virtue of this Bill are all "good" things the public will support, the GOP knows that. They're nothing but a party of obstructionists at this point.
 
David Frum, the traitorous Republican has summed it up rather well:

It‘s critical for everybody, and not just the President. It‘s critical for us on the Republican side, too. If this thing passes, there is going to be an accountability moment on the Republican side. We had a choice; do we negotiate and try to get some of our values in the bill? Or do we go for total defeat of the President and bet everything on that? I was one of those who said negotiate. That advice was rejected. We went for total defeat of the President. If he prevails, it is going to be a shutout of Republican views in one of the most important pieces of legislation ever passed in the United States.
 
This Bill is a start, there is a long way to go, but that's the state of the USA - much like gay marriage, this will take decades to get to where it should be (if ever).

Most of the initial things that will kick in by virtue of this Bill are all "good" things the public will support, the GOP knows that. They're nothing but a party of obstructionists at this point.

Exactly.

When Anthem can just after recording record profit decide to up rates in the area of 30%, something NEEDS to be done. Obama has been gracious in listening to Republican views, but they are just sticking their fingers in their ears like petulant 2 year olds.

I hope this passes, because it's a long needed first step in reforming a corrupt system.
 
I am in CA, we are 13+ per cent of the U S population.

The Anthem/ Blue Cross price bump is 39%.

I pay $500 a month for a high detuctable, HSA policy.

I pay the first $3500 and then 20% until I pay $5000 out of pocket a year.

That is with a $6000 a year premium.($500 a month) $6000 plus $3500 = $9500 before my insurance partially kicks in.

They still want to raise my premium $2400 a year more.

Why? Because they can. Health Ins Companies are exempt from fair trade/ anti trust laws. They have legal monopolies now.
 
It's really sad that those in poverty and low income situations are made to rely on "charity" to access even a mediocre standard of health care, when in many other countries (and we manage it just fine, why can't the supposedly greatest nation in the world do it?) it's a right of all citizens, regardless of employment situation or income level.

But it's okay to demean them further. They're only poor people. They're obviously mismanaging their lives, and as such, they're not as deserving. Make them jump through hoops and beg for it!

Well that's a hoot considering the "many other countries" that provide health care do so out of the "charity" of United States citizens which pay for the security of the free world.
And you're welcome by the way.
Rank Country Spending ($ b.) World Share (%)
— World Total 1464.0 100
1 United States 607.0 41.5%
2 China 84.9 5.8
3 France 65.7 4.5
4 United Kingdom 65.3 4.5
5 Russiaa 58.6 4.0
6 Germany 46.8 3.2
7 Japan 46.3 3.2
8 Italy 40.6 2.8
9 Saudi Arabia 38.2 2.6
10 India 30.0 2.1
11 South Korea 24.2 1.7
12 Brazil 23.3 1.6
13 Canada 19.3 1.3
14 Spain 19.2 1.3
15 Australia 18.4 1.3

And because universal health care "works" for a country of 35,000,000 does not mean it will function as smoothly in a country of 300,000,000.

Finally, if health care is a right then surely food and shelter are a right. So I take it Canada has no homeless shelters, missions, food banks, clothing drives, soup kitchens or other such degrading "hoops" as we here in the States cruelly subject our needy to?
 
Well that's a hoot considering the "many other countries" that provide health care do so out of the "charity" of United States citizens which pay for the security of the free world.
And you're welcome by the way.

Yes, we should all contribute equally; we all have the exact same threat levels against us.

Because we Canadians have a history of meddling in other people's business, overthrowing LEGITIMATE AND ELECTED leaders overseas in coup after coup, supporting oppressive dictatorships out of our own interests, invading countries pre-emptively on false premises, and on and on. What a joke.
 
meddling in other people's business, overthrowing LEGITIMATE AND ELECTED leaders overseas in coup after coup, supporting oppressive dictatorships out of our own interests, invading countries pre-emptively on false premises, and on and on.

The History Of United States Militarism And Imperialism

by anitram

"Finally we learn who the real evil empire is."
--Mikhail Gorbachev
"I gotta make this movie!"
--Michael Moore
"A manifesto of America's arrogance. I'm fired up and ready to go apologize around the world."
--President Barack Obama
"How's my hair look?"
--John Edwards
"I ask you Mr. and Mrs. America... how do you look in the mirror each morning? Have you no shame? No guilt? No... dare I say it... soul worth saving?"
--Keith Olbermann
 
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