MANDATORY health insurance

[martha]

I'm guessing you're too young or didn't pay attention during the Clinton years?

Dude, for reals. Didn't Clinton murder a bunch of people then cover it up? But that wasn't the nutjob sector of the right wing, that was truth.

 

[martha]

The latest well informed opposition I heard today on the healthplan, from a white man on medicare:

"Obama wants us all to be dependent on the state so we're just like all the other n***ers out there."

It took a lot of restraint not to hit the man.

But "socialist" doesn't equal "black." Not at all.

 

[financeguy]

Boy, am I late to this party.

Amusing and cogent (and sometimes incoherent) comments on both sides. My thoughts on health care are complicated and difficult to sum up. So I'll only comment on the post that made me laugh:

"Can we get a grip here? It is possible to express opposition to a president's policies without preposterous name-calling" ~ David Frum

You mean like the Left did so easily and quickly during Bush's term? The reality is that whatever lack of political dialogue we are able to have now is a direct result of studying and employing the Left's playbook for the past eight years -- used frequently and often here on FYM. ("Hail to the Thief," "GW is a racist," "GW is a moron," "GW is a war criminal," "GW is a fascist," "GW is a Christofascist," "Theocracy is on the rise," etc etc. I seem to recall several "Bush is Hitler" comments as well.)

awesome.

I've had enough of this nonsense. GW is a war criminal, he stole two elections, he illegally invaded two sovereign countries and murdered hundreds of thousands. His wars killed more, by a multiple, that the sum total ever killed by Islamist terrorists throughout recent history. They have also killed more than the entire death count 'achieved' by the Provisional IRA, LVF, UDA, Action Directe, Red Army Faction or pretty much any paramilitary terrorist group you care to mention - PUT TOGETHER.

These are quite simply the facts of US imperialism under the Buschco regime -at least, as perceived by the majority of the world outside of the US - and there's no amount of wibbling, waffling, evading nonsense that will take away from these facts.

It's time for neo-cons to grow up, repent, and start living in the really real world. It's time for liberals and moderate conservatives that enable the neo-con disease to grow up also. Neo-cons, frankly - to put it in biblical terms - need to wear their sack cloth and ashes. They should be eating humble pie for an awful long time to come.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

I've had enough of this nonsense. GW is a war criminal, he stole two elections, he illegally invaded two sovereign countries and murdered hundreds of thousands. His wars killed more, by a multiple, that the sum total ever killed by Islamist terrorists throughout recent history. They have also killed more than the entire death count 'achieved' by the Provisional IRA, LVF, UDA, Action Directe, Red Army Faction or pretty much any paramilitary terrorist group you care to mention - PUT TOGETHER.

These are quite simply the facts of US imperialism under the Buschco regime -at least, as perceived by the majority of the world outside of the US - and there's no amount of wibbling, waffling, evading nonsense that will take away from these facts.

It's time for neo-cons to grow up, repent, and start living in the really real world. It's time for liberals and moderate conservatives that enable the neo-con disease to grow up also. Neo-cons, frankly - to put it in biblical terms - need to wear their sack cloth and ashes. They should be eating humble pie for an awful long time to come.

thank you.

 

[Hobo13]

You mean he stole from Kerry too!

Anyway, let's say it goes Gore's way in 2000. What do you think Al would have done after those jets took out the WTC ? Or for that matter, any President elected by the people of the United States. Gee, I'm guessing he does the same thing GW did. I doubt he goes after the other thugs, but would he also be a war criminal ? AG the war criminal ?
Not in my book.

 

[maycocksean]

I was listening to NPR on the drive home this evening and they had one of the insurance company lobbyists on and it was quite fascinating.

INDY's right, the insurance companies fully support health care reform.

Well, a certain KIND of reform any way. They would like to see mandatory health insurance for sure. They definitely do NOT want to public option. It was kind of hilarious though, how she absolutely would NOT say why her industry really wanted the mandatory health insurance, but didn't want a public option. She used all kinds of vagaries but would never say what we all know, now matter how the interviewer hinted at it--that this kind of "reform" would be a major boost to profits.

 

[melon]

They would like to see mandatory health insurance for sure. They definitely do NOT want to public option.

Every industry would love a guaranteed revenue stream with no regulation, after all.

 

[nathan1977]

I'm guessing you're too young or didn't pay attention during the Clinton years?

I didn't realize we were suddenly defending politics as usual.

 

[BVS]

I didn't realize we were suddenly defending politics as usual.

Just not a big fan of revisionist history. I defended nothing just brought things back to reality.

 

[namkcuR]

I was listening to NPR on the drive home this evening and they had one of the insurance company lobbyists on and it was quite fascinating.

INDY's right, the insurance companies fully support health care reform.

Well, a certain KIND of reform any way. They would like to see mandatory health insurance for sure. They definitely do NOT want to public option. It was kind of hilarious though, how she absolutely would NOT say why her industry really wanted the mandatory health insurance, but didn't want a public option. She used all kinds of vagaries but would never say what we all know, now matter how the interviewer hinted at it--that this kind of "reform" would be a major boost to profits.

I'm confused, what is "mandatory health insurance"? I know what single pay/universal health care is, I know what the public option is, and I know what private health insurance is...where does "mandatory health insurance" fall?

 

[melon]

I'm confused, what is "mandatory health insurance"? I know what single pay/universal health care is, I know what the public option is, and I know what private health insurance is...where does "mandatory health insurance" fall?

I think it's similar to what Massachusetts has, where everyone is forced to purchase health insurance. I don't remember what the specifics of their plan was, though.

 

[HyperU2]

You mean he stole from Kerry too!

Anyway, let's say it goes Gore's way in 2000. What do you think Al would have done after those jets took out the WTC ? Or for that matter, any President elected by the people of the United States. Gee, I'm guessing he does the same thing GW did. I doubt he goes after the other thugs, but would he also be a war criminal ? AG the war criminal ?
Not in my book.

Wouldn't have happened. Don't forget GWB was behind knocking those buildings down. Which by the way, we deserved. Billy boy bombed Iraq and other countries willy nilly without recourse. But that had nothing to do with them attacking us.

 

[BVS]

So conspiracy theory, that we deserved, and Iraq attacked us?

There are certain rules that apply in order for irony to work, you broke most of them.

So back to healthcare???

 

[HyperU2]

Avoid McD's?

 

[dazzlingamy]

i dont agree with mandatory health insurance, but universal health care of course!

say for example you have gallstones and need to get your gallbladder removed. Can you get that done in the us for free? I mean you pay a small amount ($150) for admin costs and te like, but you get the rest for free? you may have to wait 6 months to be booked in but you get it done. Does this happen in the states? or do you have to pay for any operation or doctor or anything like that?

 

[maycocksean]

Every industry would love a guaranteed revenue stream with no regulation, after all.

Heck, not just industry. I would like a guranteed revenue stream with no regulation!

 

[Irvine511]

YouTube - Barney Frank Confronts Woman At Townhall Comparing Obama To Hitler

 

[martha]

indeed.

Although I doubt she'll stop listening to Rush. He's just so correct about these things.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

ok, that guy and the Squirrel are my two new heroes for today...

 

[bigjohn2441]

we have to first get rid of the "for profit" mentality of healthcare. as long as the companies think in terms of maximizing profit by reducing care, there will be NO significant change to the system we have.

 

[No spoken words]

we have to first get rid of the "for profit" mentality of healthcare. as long as the companies think in terms of maximizing profit by reducing care, there will be NO significant change to the system we have.

How do you suggest we get rid of that mentality?

 

[Tiger Edge]

we have to first get rid of the "for profit" mentality of healthcare. as long as the companies think in terms of maximizing profit by reducing care, there will be NO significant change to the system we have.

Then it would really be socialism. If that were to happen, I believe Civil War would break out.

 

[bigjohn2441]

How do you suggest we get rid of that mentality?

we cant.

i watched both documentaries Sicko and American Drug War: The Last White Hope in the last 2 days, so im not too optimistic at the moment.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

yeah, I though making a profit was the backbone of all things Capitalist...

 

[No spoken words]

we cant.

i watched both documentaries Sicko and American Drug War: The Last White Hope in the last 2 days, so im not too optimistic at the moment.

We can't is exactly right. There's not going to be an altruism outbreak any day soon.

 

[bigjohn2441]

We can't is exactly right. There's not going to be an altruism outbreak any day soon.

thats right. so lets shut up and get back to work. they need our production and our money.

 

[No spoken words]

thats right. so lets shut up and get back to work. they need our production and our money.

This response made me chuckle, so there's that.

 

[BVS]

YouTube - Barney Frank Confronts Woman At Townhall Comparing Obama To Hitler

Palin would be so proud. Another strong informed conservative woman by her side...

 

[maycocksean]

As I see it, taking a broad view of things, there are two basic problems in this country when it comes to healthcare.

#1. We have no real mechanism for caring for the sick. The insurance industry does not exist to take care of sick people. It exists to assist the healthy. It only makes sense--the insurance model works only as long as people are paying in more than the company pays out. But we've come to depend on insurance not only to help us out when we get sick, but also to cover all the other health-related expenses. Chronic illness is not a profitable model for an insurance company.

#2. The cost of routine and preventative care has gotten so exorbitant that it's outside the range of many people's budgets. Routine and preventative car for your car, for example is much cheaper. We need to find a way to make routine and preventative care affordable.

I'm more and more convinced that insurance isn't the solution for anything beyond catastrophic care. The insurance companies aren't really effective for us (or profitable for them--unless they routinely deny care to those who need it) for anything else.

I've also been thinking about this whole diefication of the free market. One of the things that frustrates me about conservatives (on this board and beyond) is their seeming belief in the goodness of the free market, and their unwillingness to acknowledge that no system is perfect, and that capitalism has some pretty serious flaws of its own. The biggest flaw as I see it is the very thing that makes it so effective--it harnesses human ambition (some might say human greed). The thing is just because it works doesn't mean its inherently good. Capitalism does not, for example, have anything to do with the teachings of say, Jesus Christ (apologies to non-Christians here). His teachings are about what we should be. The free market deals with the way we ARE.

It is vital to acknowledge the limits and moral dangers of the free market, because I believe there is an ethical and an unethical way to engage in business. There's nothing wrong with trying to make a profit--there is something wrong with taking that effort to maximize profits to the point where you are hurting the people you are supposed to be providing a service to and/or the people who work for you. There are always ways to cut costs and maximize profits but not all of those ways are right. It seems much of the modern business world does not see such a distinction--increased profit by itself is the ultimate and only good. And many conservatives ape this thinking without fully considering its ramifications.

We have decided as a society that education is something that should not be limited to those who can afford it. We've taken it outside of the free market arena (with varying degrees of success, I admit. After government-run programs have their own set of problems, also having to do with human nature). I think it may be time to do the same with health care.

And if education could be a model, perhaps we might find a solution. You have public schools, you have private schools for-profit, and private schools that are non-profits. My feeling is that the worst of the three is the for-profit school. These schools can often end up sacrificing what is best for the students for what will maximize the bottom line. Our school was a non-profit, and of course we had to be competitive, to stay in business--we needed to bring in more students, and provide topnotch education, but that was for the purpose of keeping our doors open and serving our students, not for the purpose of enriching stockholders.

Could we have a health care system with public, private for-profit, and private non-profit options?

 

[maycocksean]

YouTube - Barney Frank Confronts Woman At Townhall Comparing Obama To Hitler

Brilliant! Ah, it did my heart good to hear someone call that crap for what it is.

It makes a mockery of the Holocaust when people draw these kinds of comparisons.