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Old 09-03-2009, 05:56 PM   #821
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facts, figures and truth, are sometimes a nasty antidote.


Thank you,
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:58 PM   #822
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Red herring.

The votes are completely there for a bill, even some GOP votes. If Dems can't pass a health care bill now, with this Congress, when will they ever? The Blue Dogs don't want to hurt Obama. I don't think my Maine senators want to hurt him either.

The president hasn't been convincing, or specific. That's a lot of the problem. Another chance on Wednesday night.


while i agree with Obama's uncharacteristically poor performance, why the comments about "Obama's Waterloo"?

i think the GOP has seized on a bitter -- if you will -- current of fear, and they've done a very good job exploiting it. shame on the administration for not explaining costs and benefits better, but the GOP has proved, again, that they are masterful manipulators of fear, whether in power or not. and gutless Dems, worried about 2010 with war and recession on the table as well as the traditional backlash that happens 2 years after an election, are covering their own asses.

Obama has wildly misunderstood the situation, but his plan is essentially a good one, and it's essential as well -- it's health care that's going to bankrupt the nation, and *that's* what needs to be focused on.

but i digress ...
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:23 PM   #823
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I'd just like to add that it must not be easy defending your point when probably 90% of the thread is arguing against you, and even though I vehemently disagree with you, I do appreciate your posts on the subject, Indy.
Thanks. This is a matter of great importance to everyone. We are not only talking quite literally about a life or death issue and financial peace of mind, but also one that could fundamentally change, forever, the relationship between the individual and government in this country. Nothing to ram through Congress with minimal debate or no bipartisan support that's for sure.

In racing we have a saying, "You can't win the race in the first turn." But what you can easily do is crash spectacularly and I'm afraid that's what the new administration has done here.

I'm really more interested in a cure for what ills the system then the politics of this. I'll support the President where I can, but if I were advising the president I'd tell him to, "slow down, find what we can agree on, and let's get through the first turn together as a country."

What would you tell the president if you bumped into him at the Haute couture cheeseburger shoppe? Go the "Profiles In Courage" route and take the political hit, start over or something else? Anyone else feel free to answer.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:31 PM   #824
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Thanks. This is a matter of great importance to everyone. We are not only talking quite literally about a life or death issue and financial peace of mind, but also one that could fundamentally change, forever, the relationship between the individual and government in this country. Nothing to ram through Congress with minimal debate or no bipartisan support that's for sure.

In racing we have a saying, "You can't win the race in the first turn." But what you can easily do is crash spectacularly and I'm afraid that's what the new administration has done here.

I'm really more interested in a cure for what ills the system then the politics of this. I'll support the President where I can, but if I were advising the president I'd tell him to, "slow down, find what we can agree on, and let's get through the first turn together as a country."

What would you tell the president if you bumped into him at the Haute couture cheeseburger shoppe? Go the "Profiles In Courage" route and take the political hit, start over or something else? Anyone else feel free to answer.
I'd tell him that the country needs universal healthcare, and that we have an amount of control in congress and the white house that may not last for long, and that even if it means risking not having a second term, he should do it, because than he'd be a hero. Piss off the private health insurance industry, piss of the the minority in this country who don't want universal healthcare, piss them all off. He'd be the president that gave up a second term to ensure that universal healthcare finally became a reality in the USA(and it's arguable that he'd have to give up a second term anyway since 70% OF THE COUNTRY SUPPORTS PUBLIC HEALTHCARE), and in time, the minority would learn to like it. I'd tell him that it's a waste of time negotiating anything with the Republicans because they won't agree to anything that includes a public option let alone actual universal healthcare. I'd tell him to stop wasting time on the fantasy of a bi-partisan solution and I'd tell him to stop putting his bid for re-election in 2012 ahead of the chance to enact historic healthcare reform. You get the idea.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:38 PM   #825
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What would you tell the president if you bumped into him at the Haute couture cheeseburger shoppe? Go the "Profiles In Courage" route and take the political hit, start over or something else? Anyone else feel free to answer.
I would tell him to get his shit together and do a good job to dispel the myths this Wednesday. Give people concrete answers. Out-talk his detractors.

Besides that, I'd also like to say that I glanced over the poll from the NYT that anitram posted a few pages ago, and the numbers aren't nearly as bad as I assumed they are. If he does a convincing job on Wednesday, that might be all he needs to turn the tide.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:50 PM   #826
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I would tell him to get his shit together and do a good job to dispel the myths this Wednesday.
Which myths? Death panels?

It's uncertain if he's even going to come out and strongly support a public option.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:36 PM   #827
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while i agree with Obama's uncharacteristically poor performance, why the comments about "Obama's Waterloo"?
Because the senator you're quoting disagrees with the president's policies and hopes that they fail.

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i think the GOP has seized on a bitter -- if you will -- current of fear, and they've done a very good job exploiting it.
You have your boogeyman. The real boogeyman here is the 1000+ page House bill being circulated, and moderate Democrats who can't even support it.

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Shame on the administration for not explaining costs and benefits better, but the GOP has proved, again, that they are masterful manipulators of fear, whether in power or not.
Once again, this Congress should easily have the votes on a viable health care bill.

But the president has another at-bat next Wednesday...
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:26 PM   #828
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Which myths? Death panels?

It's uncertain if he's even going to come out and strongly support a public option.
If you have to ask that, you've either not been listening, or you believe them yourself.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:38 PM   #829
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This guy explains it well, guilt trips don't work well in America:



Under the current proposed Govt plan, Cancer patients will have less of a chance of survival.

We're not like other countries, however most other countries want to become more like us.

Do the math.

<>
I love the irony that the name plate says Mr. Rogers.



Also - how do I get on one of these Death Panels? What sort of degree would I need? I think I'd be very good at making decision concerning who lives or dies cause I'm a good judge of character, and I kinda don't like people all that much, so I'm pretty sure I could save the govt MILLIONS!
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Old 09-03-2009, 10:28 PM   #830
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Because the senator you're quoting disagrees with the president and hopes that he will fail.

the above is more accurate
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:34 AM   #831
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A rational discussion between teabaggers and one of Satan's minions? Say it ain't so!

I think everyone should watch this so we know that not every teabagger is batshit insane, and to show that not even Sen. Franklin is a radical tirade-shouting lunatic. And I don't even like him.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:45 AM   #832
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Franken

I didn't think much of him outside of SNL, but I like that clip...
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:05 AM   #833
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Oops, Franken. Dunno why I said Franklin.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:07 PM   #834
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If you have to ask that, you've either not been listening, or you believe them yourself.
The death panel thing is silly.

What other myths are you eluding to?
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:13 PM   #835
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I like the accidental use of "eluding" in here. Very ironic.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:59 PM   #836
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Use Your Elusion VI
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:22 PM   #837
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The death panel thing is silly.

What other myths are you eluding to?
Gee, since you're interested, and since googling must be too difficult a task for you, I took five seconds and did the hard work.

Twenty-six Lies About H.R. 3200 | FactCheck.org
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:33 PM   #838
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Gee, since you're interested, and since googling must be too difficult a task for you, I took five seconds and did the hard work.

Twenty-six Lies About H.R. 3200 | FactCheck.org
How to use the internetz alludes him.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:39 PM   #839
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How to use the internetz alludes him.
Have the Jews issued a statement about health care reform yet?
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:46 PM   #840
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Have the Jews issued a statement about health care reform yet?
Too busy controlling how the media reports Health Care reform stories, sorry.
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