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Old 08-18-2009, 03:05 PM   #441
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Which is why it's collapsing despite a huge Democratic majority in the House and a 60 vote filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.


show me where this plan is radical.

i think what we're seeing is the spinelessness of Democrats worried about 2010, and the influence of cable news, as well as the difficulty of saying anything remotely rational about health care in this country because we have people like you comparing something that every last developed nation offers it's citizens to Hitler.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:08 PM   #442
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show me where this plan is radical.

I think what we're seeing is the spinelessness of democrats worried about 2010, and the influence of cable news, as well as the difficulty of saying anything remotely rational about health care in this country because we have people like you comparing something that every last developed nation offers it's citizens to hitler.
+1.

Also, is it possible that insurance companies were, or could be in the future, campaign contributers? Once again, congress putting their bids for re-election over doing what's right for the country. Big surprise.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:20 PM   #443
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i think what we're seeing is the spinelessness of Democrats worried about 2010, and the influence of cable news, as well as the difficulty of saying anything remotely rational about health care in this country because we have people like you comparing something that every last developed nation offers it's citizens to Hitler.
Well it has death panels.

It won't allow profit hungry suits who know nothing about healthcare set and control prices, now the damn people we vote on will get to do this.

And it's socialist, which someone told me was like fascism which = hitler.

How can you not see the writing on the wall?
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:29 PM   #444
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i also think this was a miscalculation on Obama's part, at least politically.

my assumption is that he thinks that getting health care costs under control, in the face of deficits and the knowledge that very shortly health care costs are going to explode, was the motivation. that as well as a sense of crisis that might abate by this time next year as the economy eventually recovers.

it could be that it was all too much too soon, as his presidency has been awfully ambitious from the start. and i think this provided a perfect moment for the GOP Palin-base to freak out and it made for great TV during the slow, slow summer months, so it got disproportionate coverage on cable.

a few facts remain:

1. even El Salvador offers universal health care for it's citizens
2. health care costs will skyrocket
3. it is going to have to be paid for somewhere, somehow
4. the current health care system in this country -- and, also, others -- is unsustainable as the population ages, as people live well into their 90s, and as fewer and fewer businesses are able to cover health care for their employees

so let's actually deal with the fact that, yes, we have a problem, and let's stop the freak out on this issue.

and, yes, i don't see the Left freaking out nearly as much as the Right.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:36 PM   #445
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i also think this was a miscalculation on Obama's part, at least politically.
I was thinking about this this morning actually.

Do you think that Obama perhaps overreached on this one. Was there some hubris, perhaps, to think that he could do what Clinton tried and failed to do?

I agree with your concise summation of the current situation, but at the risk of sounding overly pessimistic, I wonder if this country will ever accept any type of universal healthcare coverage. Maybe it's like the metric system. . .
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:40 PM   #446
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The latest well informed opposition I heard today on the healthplan, from a white man on medicare:

"Obama wants us all to be dependent on the state so we're just like all the other n***ers out there."

It took a lot of restraint not to hit the man.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:41 PM   #447
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The latest well informed opposition I heard today on the healthplan, from a white man on medicare:

"Obama wants us all to be dependent on the state so we're just like all the other n***ers out there."

It took a lot of restraint not to hit the man.
aint Fox News great?
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:42 PM   #448
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I was thinking about this this morning actually.

Do you think that Obama perhaps overreached on this one. Was there some hubris, perhaps, to think that he could do what Clinton tried and failed to do?

I agree with your concise summation of the current situation, but at the risk of sounding overly pessimistic, I wonder if this country will ever accept any type of universal healthcare coverage. Maybe it's like the metric system. . .
I think his urgency has a lot to do with this... I have no doubt the country will wake up and we'll eventually be on some kind of universal system, but I'm not certain it will happen right now, but I'm pretty sure it will happen before his terms are up.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:53 PM   #449
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and, yes, i don't see the Left freaking out nearly as much as the Right.
But the left IS congress. The left has a big majority in the House and a 'super-majority' in the Senate. They don't NEED the right to pass this. So, if they aren't freaking out nearly as much as the right, then why hasn't the plan passed yet?

Moreover, it is the left that decided to push a plan with a public option instead of full single-payer universal healthcare, it is the left that has proven too afraid, for whatever reason, be it ideologically or politically, to cut the private insurance companies out altogether.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:27 PM   #450
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then why hasn't the plan passed yet?
Because Southern Democrats are unreliable partners, and they make up enough of the party to ensure that the Democratic leadership still has to bargain with right-wingers. These conservatives just happen to be in their own party, rather than as part of the opposition.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:48 PM   #451
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I'm guessing you're too young or didn't pay attention during the Clinton years?
Dude, for reals. Didn't Clinton murder a bunch of people then cover it up? But that wasn't the nutjob sector of the right wing, that was truth.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:49 PM   #452
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The latest well informed opposition I heard today on the healthplan, from a white man on medicare:

"Obama wants us all to be dependent on the state so we're just like all the other n***ers out there."

It took a lot of restraint not to hit the man.
But "socialist" doesn't equal "black." Not at all.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:01 PM   #453
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Boy, am I late to this party.

Amusing and cogent (and sometimes incoherent) comments on both sides. My thoughts on health care are complicated and difficult to sum up. So I'll only comment on the post that made me laugh:

"Can we get a grip here? It is possible to express opposition to a president's policies without preposterous name-calling" ~ David Frum

You mean like the Left did so easily and quickly during Bush's term? The reality is that whatever lack of political dialogue we are able to have now is a direct result of studying and employing the Left's playbook for the past eight years -- used frequently and often here on FYM. ("Hail to the Thief," "GW is a racist," "GW is a moron," "GW is a war criminal," "GW is a fascist," "GW is a Christofascist," "Theocracy is on the rise," etc etc. I seem to recall several "Bush is Hitler" comments as well.)

awesome.
I've had enough of this nonsense. GW is a war criminal, he stole two elections, he illegally invaded two sovereign countries and murdered hundreds of thousands. His wars killed more, by a multiple, that the sum total ever killed by Islamist terrorists throughout recent history. They have also killed more than the entire death count 'achieved' by the Provisional IRA, LVF, UDA, Action Directe, Red Army Faction or pretty much any paramilitary terrorist group you care to mention - PUT TOGETHER.

These are quite simply the facts of US imperialism under the Buschco regime -at least, as perceived by the majority of the world outside of the US - and there's no amount of wibbling, waffling, evading nonsense that will take away from these facts.

It's time for neo-cons to grow up, repent, and start living in the really real world. It's time for liberals and moderate conservatives that enable the neo-con disease to grow up also. Neo-cons, frankly - to put it in biblical terms - need to wear their sack cloth and ashes. They should be eating humble pie for an awful long time to come.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:57 PM   #454
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I've had enough of this nonsense. GW is a war criminal, he stole two elections, he illegally invaded two sovereign countries and murdered hundreds of thousands. His wars killed more, by a multiple, that the sum total ever killed by Islamist terrorists throughout recent history. They have also killed more than the entire death count 'achieved' by the Provisional IRA, LVF, UDA, Action Directe, Red Army Faction or pretty much any paramilitary terrorist group you care to mention - PUT TOGETHER.

These are quite simply the facts of US imperialism under the Buschco regime -at least, as perceived by the majority of the world outside of the US - and there's no amount of wibbling, waffling, evading nonsense that will take away from these facts.

It's time for neo-cons to grow up, repent, and start living in the really real world. It's time for liberals and moderate conservatives that enable the neo-con disease to grow up also. Neo-cons, frankly - to put it in biblical terms - need to wear their sack cloth and ashes. They should be eating humble pie for an awful long time to come.
thank you.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:39 PM   #455
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You mean he stole from Kerry too!

Anyway, let's say it goes Gore's way in 2000. What do you think Al would have done after those jets took out the WTC ? Or for that matter, any President elected by the people of the United States. Gee, I'm guessing he does the same thing GW did. I doubt he goes after the other thugs, but would he also be a war criminal ? AG the war criminal ?
Not in my book.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:48 PM   #456
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I was listening to NPR on the drive home this evening and they had one of the insurance company lobbyists on and it was quite fascinating.

INDY's right, the insurance companies fully support health care reform.

Well, a certain KIND of reform any way. They would like to see mandatory health insurance for sure. They definitely do NOT want to public option. It was kind of hilarious though, how she absolutely would NOT say why her industry really wanted the mandatory health insurance, but didn't want a public option. She used all kinds of vagaries but would never say what we all know, now matter how the interviewer hinted at it--that this kind of "reform" would be a major boost to profits.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:42 PM   #457
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They would like to see mandatory health insurance for sure. They definitely do NOT want to public option.
Every industry would love a guaranteed revenue stream with no regulation, after all.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:55 PM   #458
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I'm guessing you're too young or didn't pay attention during the Clinton years?
I didn't realize we were suddenly defending politics as usual.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:08 PM   #459
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I didn't realize we were suddenly defending politics as usual.
Just not a big fan of revisionist history. I defended nothing just brought things back to reality.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:16 PM   #460
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I was listening to NPR on the drive home this evening and they had one of the insurance company lobbyists on and it was quite fascinating.

INDY's right, the insurance companies fully support health care reform.

Well, a certain KIND of reform any way. They would like to see mandatory health insurance for sure. They definitely do NOT want to public option. It was kind of hilarious though, how she absolutely would NOT say why her industry really wanted the mandatory health insurance, but didn't want a public option. She used all kinds of vagaries but would never say what we all know, now matter how the interviewer hinted at it--that this kind of "reform" would be a major boost to profits.
I'm confused, what is "mandatory health insurance"? I know what single pay/universal health care is, I know what the public option is, and I know what private health insurance is...where does "mandatory health insurance" fall?
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