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Old 08-11-2009, 09:57 PM   #201
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And where's the evidence after 40 years, that the United States government can manage, administer and fund healthcare without going into debt?
But there's always another politician to say "If we just spend more money we can fix the system."
Now you might believe that but I know better.



would you support "free" healthcare for the unborn?
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:59 AM   #202
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Just thought I'd sum up my unanswered questions for you, INDY, in one handy recap post.
Why don't you or another supporter of the bill tell me what I should like about it. Tell me what you like about it. Is it just the goals or can you point to specifics that you think are a really good ideas.

After all, I recognize our current system is in need of reform. I can see the problems of rising costs and gaps in coverage for Americans.

If we can't agree on everything, what in the bill could we agree on?

If this is a townhall, I've had my say. I want to hear those others in support.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:16 PM   #203
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What I like about HR 3200 (the version of the health care reform bill I read and no I didn't read it all):

Background, I work for a large university, our health care functions much like that of the government. We get to choose amongst several plans from several companies, including HMO's and our in house PPO. Our plans are actually quite affordable, why because there are so many employees that the university can negotiate good rates. This is essentially what the health care reform bill wants to do. They want to create a pool for individuals and small business to help get them a better rate and more options.

Additionally, there is actual reform to the health insurance process. Thankfully, I've been healthy and thankfully when my father got cancer he was working for the state and had good insurance. However, not everyone is that fortunate and this bill also has provisions for reforming insurance claims and of course the practice of not insuring people with previous conditions.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:37 PM   #204
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Anything that causes this many urban legends like "death panels" has to be awesome.

It gives wider coverage. A moral victory right there.

It doesn't allow pharma and insurance companies to set prices and control healthcare as much as they do now, it will force private insurance companies to actually be competitive for once.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:39 PM   #205
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Why don't you or another supporter of the bill tell me what I should like about it. Tell me what you like about it. Is it just the goals or can you point to specifics that you think are a really good ideas.

After all, I recognize our current system is in need of reform. I can see the problems of rising costs and gaps in coverage for Americans.

If we can't agree on everything, what in the bill could we agree on?

If this is a townhall, I've had my say. I want to hear those others in support.
Nice way to sidestep some tough questions, but okay. . .I'll let you get buy with it.

My research consisted of looking at the White House's website on what Obama wants in a health care reform package. I also read the TIME magazine cover article from two weeks ago that has a really handy users guide on how reform would affect various parties. I took a glance at the text of HR 3200, but it will take awhile to wade through that and I do have work I need to do today.

Based on all that, here's what I like (with the caveat that I understand that it may or not be in the current bill that's in Congress).

I like the idea of a public option for insurance.

I like the idea of stopping insurers from denying coverage to those with pre-existing conditions.

I would be okay with making purchasing/having health insurance a requirement (like how it is with car insurance) but I'd also accept giving people the option to purchase insurance. I prefer the former because I think there are people out there who won't buy insurance if they don't have to, even if they can afford it, and those people end up costing us all when they show up at the emergency room. Still I know many would balk at the idea of being forced to buy insurance so I could live without that.

The big problem I would see with reform as I've described would be the cost involved, especially if you're talking about forming a huge new federal agency. Supposedly people paying into the pubic option could help pay for it, but the subsidies needed to cover everybody who can't afford to buy would be pretty big, I'm guessing. My hunch is that it will mean an increase in taxes.

I see a lot that the insurance companies would hate about this type of reform--if Congress simply passed a law that required everyone to buy insurance, I imagine the insurance companies would be elated with that.

Those are some of my initial thoughts.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:54 PM   #206
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Anything that causes this many urban legends like "death panels" has to be awesome.

It is the intentional 'big lie'

the goal is to confuse and scare enough to prevent anything from passing

it worked before

89.3 KPCC | Kill Grandma? Debunking a health bill scare tactic
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:14 PM   #207
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There's lots of different options:

Health in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Healthcare in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Health care in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Healthcare in Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All these systems cost money. If the public wants an idea on how to save on health costs they should learn to eat better than McDonalds and put together a prayer or meditation practice to reduce stress:







I personally would prefer at least a system that had competition in the delivery of the service even if the funding is collected via payroll taxes but none of that really matters if the culture doesn't focus on prevention. Catastrophic care (and pre-existing conditions at birth) won't be as costly to the public if the great majority of the population made better choices after being born healthy in the first place. The few times I ate at a fast food restaurant I didn't remember feeling satisfied or felt that I couldn't cook healthier, better tasting food myself.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:18 PM   #208
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Here is a link to a 1000+ page House version of the bill:
http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

I'd like to know if I'm understanding the choice to keep your current coverage.

This is on Page 16. A person would be grandfathered in if their coverage was in full effect before Y1 (Y1 is 2013). That means if you like your coverage you can keep it. However, at the bottom of page 16, the bill seems to forbid any change to your current plan. No change to terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing." Does that mean I'm not allowed to change my deductible or any provisions of my agreement? That's quite a clause.

Page 19. Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

So that means there will be a Health Insurance Exchange for me to choose plans from. And I probably won't have a choice outside this exchange. Ok, how's it going to run?

Page 41. There will be a Health Choices Administration. The Administration shall be headed by a Health Choices Commissioner (in this division referred to as the ‘‘Commissioner’’) who shall be appointed by the President.

Page 42. The Commissioner is responsible for carrying out the following functions under this division: (1) QUALIFIED PLAN STANDARDS.—The establishment of qualified health benefits plan standards under this title, including the enforcement of such standards in coordination with State insurance regulators and the Secretaries of Labor and the Treasury.
(2) HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE.—The establishment and operation of a Health Insurance Exchange under subtitle A of title II.



So...if I want to make ANY change to my current plan, I am not able to. I AM allowed to choose the public plan, or choose from private plans in an Exchange, but only if the private plan is blessed by a presidentially-appointed "Commissioner."

I guess I'm skeptical of who will be making the decisions here.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:05 PM   #209
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at the bottom of page 16, the bill seems to forbid any change to your current plan. No change to terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing." Does that mean I'm not allowed to change my deductible or any provisions of my agreement? That's quite a clause.
My understanding is that your provider can't make these changes once the public plan goes into effect, but you can...

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I guess I'm skeptical of who will be making the decisions here.
Do you honestly think you are making the decisions now?
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:53 PM   #210
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So...if I want to make ANY change to my current plan, I am not able to. I AM allowed to choose the public plan, or choose from private plans in an Exchange, but only if the private plan is blessed by a presidentially-appointed "Commissioner."

I guess I'm skeptical of who will be making the decisions here.
Thanks for the link Bluer White. From my reading of the pages you cited, it sounds like the limitatons are placed on the insurance issuer, not on you. It seems to be designed to keep the insurance companies from changing your coverage after Year 1--you know suddenly saying--oh, sorry we can't cover that procedure anymore.

As for the Health Commissioner, I think that's just the person whose going to run the public program and coordinate all of this new policy. It doesn't really strike me as draconian at all. Is the program supposed to run itself. I would say, though that setting up an essentially new agency is bound to be expensive. It would be nice if it could at least pay for itself.

I do find it interesting that people are so worried about the government bureaucrats deciding what kind of medical treatments they'll pay for, yet they are okay with businessmen in the insurance industry making the exact same decisions.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:43 PM   #211
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I do find it interesting that people are so worried about the government bureaucrats deciding what kind of medical treatments they'll pay for, yet they are okay with businessmen in the insurance industry making the exact same decisions.

This is exactly what I don't get...
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:02 PM   #212
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I do find it interesting that people are so worried about the government bureaucrats deciding what kind of medical treatments they'll pay for, yet they are okay with businessmen in the insurance industry making the exact same decisions.
Well, I'd say that that's a peripheral argument. I think that the opposition to public health care really comes down to a resistance to change.

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That's one thing that troubles me about this healthcare debate. I was talking the other day to a friend who is really frightened of the healthcare bill, saying that he won't be able to get the care he's used to. I'm not sure how true that is, but what troubles me about critics of health care reform is the lack of concern from many of them about the uninsured.
"The death of morality," indeed.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:07 PM   #213
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Well gee, fuck 'em if they can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make enough money to be able to afford coverage.

Work harder, kids!
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:14 PM   #214
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FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Not All Socialist Countries are Alike

Cute read.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:59 PM   #215
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Well gee, fuck 'em if they can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make enough money to be able to afford coverage.

Work harder, kids!
Amen.
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:27 PM   #216
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I know, right? I mean it's so easy to pull yourself out of poverty. Every conservative that has preached this to me, has done that very thing... Well at least... wait... um... ok... but they talk about it.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:42 AM   #217
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All these systems cost money. If the public wants an idea on how to save on health costs they should learn to eat better than McDonalds and put together a prayer or meditation practice to reduce stress:
yes, because it's all really just that simple.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:50 AM   #218
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Amen.
Quit ignoring my sarcasm just to piss off us left wingers.
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:24 AM   #219
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yes, because it's all really just that simple.
I think the videos I posted show the cause and consequence of eating habits, mental habits, and exercise habits. Creating new habits is a simple decision but it is not an easy one to practice without effort over some time. It took a lot of effort for me but now it's a new habit and I'm glad I'm not going back to KFC and A&W anymore. I'm glad that food seems repulsive to me. I'm glad that my legs can handle longer runs because I kept at it over two years to change my health. If I can do it then so can others. I'm just being positive over something I've experienced myself and others who are more health conscious have as well. Even my secular Buddhist practice helped me remove some of my inhibitions so I was aware of more choices I could do and learning about neuroplasticity also helped me have more belief that I could rewire my habits and see health results which further created motivation to continue. If people didn't have neuroplasticity in adulthood then all adults would be zombies by now. Now I don't know how to create a health conscious culture like in Sweden or Okinawa in North America so I focus on doing it for myself and hopefully others around me will see the necessity of it. By the time I hit 40 I want to be on target for my weight and general health. That's part of the reason why I like U2 because they often make songs about addiction and know that those who escape it feel much happier than those who don't. There's something enjoyable about charting your own direction in life and being in control of your choices instead of going by impulse and old habits. It's one thing to try and think your way through problems but taking action is the real work.

People can bitch about imperfect health care systems and should try and improve them but if they are eating crap and smoking or taking drugs then what are they trying to prove whether they are conservative or liberal? It's like people having a conversation about dirty air and lighting up a cigar.

I could easily be the type that doesn't share this information and just have the benefits myself and be a narcissist looking down on people like a snob and feel good that I'm healthier than others but that's not who I am. I want to see more people get healthier.
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:54 AM   #220
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So only two posters, troganchick and maycocksean, can tell us why they support this legislation?

Ok, maybe this is too broad. Let's talk specifics.

Issue 1) Abortion
Current law bars the use of federal funds to pay for abortions. Repeated attempts to carry this language over into the reform legislation have been blocked.

a) is abortion health care and if so shouldn't it be noted as such in the bill?

b) regardless of your views on abortion, would FYM'ers insist upon, in the spirit of bipartisanship and the need to move reform forward, language maintaining current federal law in regards to abortion funding?
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