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Old 09-12-2007, 11:02 AM   #21
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Then they'll have to hope they are being judged for their acting skill and not their penis size. If we're going for a more realistic cinema, then an audience will have to grow up enough to know there are variations. Women certainly do.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:11 AM   #22
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Then they'll have to hope they are being judged for their acting skill and not their penis size. If we're going for a more realistic cinema, then an audience will have to grow up enough to know there are variations. Women certainly do.


fair point.

harvey keitel, for example, seems perfectly fine with this.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:13 AM   #23
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Perfect example.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:24 AM   #24
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yes, but one can diet and work out.
Only to a point. Much of what's conventionally seen to make a naked female body highly attractive (large perky boobs, long legs with the "right" curvature, a tight rounded butt) is in fact genetically determined--simply being toned and thin won't give you those things. Of course there are surgical "enhancements" available for breast and butt "problems" but then there are for penises too.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:29 AM   #25
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Only to a point. Much of what's conventionally seen to make a naked female body highly attractive (large perky boobs, long legs with the "right" curvature, a tight rounded butt) is in fact genetically determined--simply being toned and thin won't give you those things. Of course there are surgical "enhancements" available for breast and butt "problems" but then there are for penises too.


i'm sure there are things that can be done to "enhance" the size of a penis, especially on celluloid, but i can lose 20 lbs, i can't gain 3 inches, and i'd argue that there's a wider variety of "right" female forms -- we've talked about Beyonce and J-Lo -- than there is for a penis where either it's big, or it isn't. (and then there's the whole circumscision issue).

i also don't think you can compare breast implants to penile implants, in terms of success or safety. maybe if there were a sudden demand for men to have tight jeans and bursting packages you might see some advancements, but the way it is right now, breast implant are relatively safe and common and as such are well-researched and funded by doctors who know what they are doing. penile implants are not.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:47 AM   #26
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Agreed about the difference in safety of implants (though the differential "demand" factor you mentioned may itself play into that) and the circumcised aesthetic. And true, some starlets are quite voluptuous--though as you've noted elsewhere, in practice there seems to be a racial component to who can "get away with" that. But what makes you assume there's not a corresponding variety of admired male forms? Certainly I think straight women appreciate more than one type of male body shape (so long as it's toned, if we're talking celluloid "ideals") and of course that includes more components than just penis length--butt shape, torso shape, shoulders and arms for example.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:48 AM   #27
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icky.

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Old 09-12-2007, 11:58 AM   #28
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icky.

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you know you're curious.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:05 PM   #29
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But what makes you assume there's not a corresponding variety of admired male forms? Certainly I think straight women appreciate more than one type of male body shape (so long as it's toned, if we're talking celluloid "ideals") and of course that includes more components than just penis length--butt shape, torso shape, shoulders and arms for example.

i thought we were talking about penises?

as for male forms, i think there are a wide variety of "types" that are appreciated -- one just has to peruse, for example, gay culture to learn all about twinks, daddies, bears, geeks, A&F boys, jocks, etc. -- and i think that's also true for women.

i'd argue that there are a great variety of women wit a great variety of shapes -- from swanlike Gwyneth to voluptuous Catherine Zeta-Jones or Rachel Weisz -- to other women who are attractive, certainly, but not pin-ups, nor do they have to be (Cate Blanchette, Jodie Foster, Meryl Streep) because they are all considered thespians first and foremost. since they are on stage and on camera, there's a basic level of attractiveness, of course, and that's true for men as well -- hello, Daniel Day-Lewis -- but their looks are secondary to their talents.

what we're getting at, i think, and what i think many women justly feel irritated by, is the pin-up tits-n-ass type girl who's on al the magazine covers. what Britney was. what Jessica Alba is. and the reason why we see more of this type of girl is because men are more visual (like why there's more pornography). but these women aren't usually taken seriously as artists. these women are there to mostly provide masturbation material for men.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:25 PM   #30
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I just want to know how many men who think the full frontal male nudity is "icky" would also say that the full female nudity is icky. Is the icky strictly looking at another guy's penis? I guess the disempowering would involve losing that control, women have had to lose it for years.

Personally I think what is left to the imagination is always the sexiest. After shows like that HBO show (I am going by the description, I am HBOless unfortunately), what is left? I prefer love scenes that are more discreet and nudity that is the same. If not done a certain way it all starts to look like porn and just so mechanical and lacking in a certain humanity. I saw Viggo on GMA this morning and as he explained it, his full frontal nudity was necessary for the story. There is a fight in a bathhouse, and the towel would not stay on during a fight. And Viggo strikes me as the type of guy whose sense of manhood is not at all tied into his size-for whatever that's worth. That is a man.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:29 PM   #31
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Personally I think what is left to the imagination is always the sexiest. After shows like that HBO show (I am going by the description, I am HBOless unfortunately), what is left? I prefer love scenes that are more discreet and nudity that is the same.


what's interesting about the show, though, is that's intentionally clinical about sex -- it's not sexy at all, and it's not intended to be. i haven't made up my mind about it yet, but i'm intrigued by it.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:40 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Irvine511

what's interesting about the show, though, is that's intentionally clinical about sex -- it's not sexy at all, and it's not intended to be. i haven't made up my mind about it yet, but i'm intrigued by it.
I have read some about it and from what I understood the relationship aspects of it are really the most graphic and "disturbing" elements.

I think the equality aspect of this is great, and it is about time. But personally I'm still interested in looking at Viggo's eyes. The rest is not something I need to know about But I don't need know about the women either. There is sexy nudity and there is nudity that is just so unsexy.

I just don't see the full frontal male nudity ever becoming a norm, not the way female nudity is.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:00 PM   #33
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i thought we were talking about penises?
I thought we were talking about "full-frontal male nudity," not "penis closeups." I haven't seen the series nor the scene in question; maybe it's one and the same in that case. But I think the way that article put it...
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Just as the cinematic baring of female breasts led many women to compare themselves and despair, putting the male organ out their for public consumption may strike many men as disempowering, deflating and just plain icky.
...exaggerates the role of one particular body part in what's "deflating" about constantly seeing highly idealized versions of the total package of your sex's body type on screen. Yeah, breasts and penises are respectively the most "noteworthy" things you spot when you see a naked woman or man onscreen, but the whole package and how its proportions flow together is also being evaluated, and being "well-endowed" in those particular areas isn't going to outweigh an unflattering impression of everything else. I'm not saying that's necessarily something to cheer about--on the contrary, in some ways it would at least mean fewer people depressed about their bodies if being "lucky" in that one department trumped everything else. But in real (sex) life it doesn't. If there was ever a time when "the cinematic baring of female breasts" alone "led many women to compare themselves and despair," then it's long since broadened into a much more extensive list of assets for women to mope about their own "inadequacies" in, several of them things you "either have or you don't." Maybe an increasing use of full-frontal male nudity wouldn't have that same effect, maybe everything would always come down to penis size, but I kind of doubt it. I don't know that it really matters much that penises are genitalia and breasts aren't--either way it tends to be perceived as a comment on your "potency," or maybe better in women's case, desirability--whatever, the point is it adds up to a verdict on your worth as a sexual being. The "performance" difference is a good point, though that's only a factor if the scene calls for it.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:31 PM   #34
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I just want to know how many men who think the full frontal male nudity is "icky" would also say that the full female nudity is icky. Is the icky strictly looking at another guy's penis? I guess the disempowering would involve losing that control, women have had to lose it for years.
I don't think either are "icky". They just are -- it's what nature gave us.

If there's increasing demand for male nudity in films, I don't have a problem with that. Women deserve eye candy too. <wink> But I think equality in that regard is a long ways out, given our society's sexism.

I'm not going to seek out a film because it has male nudity, but I'm not going to turn down a film just because it has it.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:47 PM   #35
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I thought we were talking about "full-frontal male nudity," not "penis closeups." I haven't seen the series nor the scene in question; maybe it's one and the same in that case. But I think the way that article put it...


and i took the two as interchangeable, because i've always taken "full-frontal male nudity" as basically seeing the penis. we see most everything else of men, and we're getting more male backsides, especially on cable sex shoes like SATC and the new "Californication," and that seems fair to me, since there's no female pubic hair (but plenty of butts and breasts).

i also don't think it's fair to directly compare breasts to penises. across europe, you'll find plenty of topless women sunbathing, but unless you are at a nudist beach, you really won't find any naked men sun bathing their penises.

but if male full-frontal nudity becomes more normalized, i agree, in addition to fretting about penis size, we'll have more men starving themselves in order to get the discussed-in-here Michael Phelps "Man-V":

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Old 09-12-2007, 04:53 PM   #36
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I remember my brother had seen some movie in one of his German classes, and he said it was a really amazing, thought-provoking film, but he wasn't going to buy it because there was one scene where a man gets up from bed to open the blinds or something, and he's naked, so when he stands up you get a glimpse of his junk. The scene to him was just "unnecessary." And in his case I don't think it was the whole comparing size thing making him feel inadequate, but just the innapropriateness of nudity. But even so, I don't think that his reaction would be the same if it were a woman, just because that seems to be more common in films.

I don't really have a lot to add to the discussion, but I just want to say that I am SO excited for Viggo's movie. I was before I found out about the nude fight scene in the sauna, but now I'm just so curious! I mean, looking at a girl, you know what her assets are, generally, even when she's wearing clothes; it's pretty obvious if someone has nice breasts, but with men you have no idea.
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:41 PM   #37
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Gee, what's the big deal? This is nothing that hasn't been seen in European mainstream cinema for years!

You yanks need to get over your hang ups!
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:31 PM   #38
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You yanks need to get over your hang ups!
Apparently the issue is "hung" ups.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:32 PM   #39
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:39 AM   #40
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Eh. . . I tend to agree with BonoSaint. It's about time men get put under the unforgiving searchlight for a change. Whatever new psychological angst might result will probably be small potatoes compared to what women have had endure over the millenia.

Personally, I'd rather not see full frontal male nudity (while at the same time being more inclined to see female nudity) but then that makes sense. . .I'm a heterosexual man. And frankly personal preferences are neither here nor there in terms of what "should" or "shouldn't be" shown.

The show itself sounds fascinating though.
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