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Old 08-27-2008, 04:08 PM   #21
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Is there any age limit that it is not appropriate to discuss sexual matters with?
Of course. I think you can only discuss sex in an age-appropriate way if you actually want the children to understand you and to get whatever message you are trying to project. It's a bit silly to even ask the question.
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Old 08-27-2008, 04:09 PM   #22
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In the photo, it says right on the cover of the book, "For age 10 and up."
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:25 PM   #23
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I don't mind that she's offended by the book -- she can be offended all she wants. My problem with her is that she doesn't want to allow others the same opportunity to be offended (or not).
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:52 PM   #24
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In short, I don't think getting some books to help the conversation along is a bad thing like you seem to be implying. I think my mom did a great job, with the resources and hostile environment to educating your kids about sex she was working against at the time.

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Relying on a "teen magazine" as a daughter's primary sex ed teaching tool (what are sons supposed to read?) would be equally pathetic IMO.
I should've explained what kind of talk I had growing up.

My mom came of age in the 1950s and had me at a late age. Therefore she is very conservative when it comes to sex. When she taught me about puberty and where babies come from, she wasn't afraid about that. What she was afraid of was me finding out from other people. In junior high, when sex-ed came around, she pulled me from the class. I was the laughingstock of my class when it was that time of week to discuss sex ed, because I had to go hang out in the library while my classmates got to hear about the birds and the bees (and no, the library did not have books on sex-ed either). At the time, my mom said she didn't want me to learn about sex-ed with boys in the class. But now I realize she was afraid I would learn something she didn't want me to learn. What, I don't know.

My mom thought I was too young to learn about sex itself, but the problem was, other kids knew things I didn't know. For example, in sixth grade, I wasn't quite sure what a virgin was. To make it short, I had a lot of mortifying moments that year.

Luckily, I had two older sisters who taught me about sex. It was they who subscribed me to Seventeen so I could learn more. At the time, my mom almost cancelled the subscription because she thought I was too young for the magazine. But that is where I learned what masturbation was and what oral sex was, and so on. So learning from a magazine is not pathetic.

Because of my experience, I get annoyed when I hear about parents thinking teaching sex is "immoral" or something. I'm all for sex-ed in school, and most importantly, I am all for parents being frank about sex.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:02 PM   #25
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I've worked in the public library system for almost ten years and I actually deal with this attitude all the time. The sex-ed books, the unfiltered internet, the books on the history of Las Vegas with topless showgirls in them, the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue; it's always something offending someone and someone complaining that something should be done about it. For the life of me I cannot figure out why these people think they have the right to decide what other people can look at.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:11 PM   #26
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I also got a book. They put it on the table, I looked at the picture, I was asked if I had questions, I said I did not, and that was "the talk".
you should have gone to snow's house.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:14 PM   #27
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I've worked in the public library system for almost ten years and I actually deal with this attitude all the time. The sex-ed books, the unfiltered internet, the books on the history of Las Vegas with topless showgirls in them, the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue; it's always something offending someone and someone complaining that something should be done about it. For the life of me I cannot figure out why these people think they have the right to decide what other people can look at.
Yes.
Why people think a library should have restricted information is beyond me.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:16 PM   #28
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50 years ago, 95% of the population would have agreed with her. Would you have also diagnosed them as requiring psychiatric help?
Fifty years ago, 95% of the population probably referred to female menstruation as "The Curse" too.

Just because a particular belief is popular doesn't mean it is any less neurotic.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:23 PM   #29
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Just because a particular belief is popular doesn't mean it is any less neurotic.
That is true, but logically there must also be popular particular beliefs of our current time period that are neurotic.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:30 PM   #30
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That is true, but logically there must also be popular particular beliefs of our current time period that are neurotic.
Of course there are. Ever see the number of "Defense of Marriage" amendments that have passed in the U.S.?
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:30 PM   #31
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It teaches children they have a right to sex, and that their bodies and others' bodies are toys made for recreation.
"Treating your body like an amusement park"?
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:32 AM   #32
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I bet this woman comes from the school of thought that if a woman enjoys sex, shes sexually deviant and evil

While i think parents have the right to choose when their child learns properly about sex (because kids know alll about some fuzzy details about sex from such an early age) but they need to be informed about the problems they are causing by making it so taboo and wroooooong!
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:09 AM   #33
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"Treating your body like an amusement park"?
Well...I did hear someone refer to a guy's kind of pudgy belly as a "veranda over the playground" once....

(I have to admit that line still makes me laugh )
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:20 AM   #34
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I can't quite get that image out of my head. Thank you very much.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:26 AM   #35
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You're welcome.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:54 AM   #36
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I should've explained what kind of talk I had growing up.

My mom came of age in the 1950s and had me at a late age. Therefore she is very conservative when it comes to sex. When she taught me about puberty and where babies come from, she wasn't afraid about that. What she was afraid of was me finding out from other people. In junior high, when sex-ed came around, she pulled me from the class. I was the laughingstock of my class when it was that time of week to discuss sex ed, because I had to go hang out in the library while my classmates got to hear about the birds and the bees (and no, the library did not have books on sex-ed either). At the time, my mom said she didn't want me to learn about sex-ed with boys in the class. But now I realize she was afraid I would learn something she didn't want me to learn. What, I don't know.

My mom thought I was too young to learn about sex itself, but the problem was, other kids knew things I didn't know. For example, in sixth grade, I wasn't quite sure what a virgin was. To make it short, I had a lot of mortifying moments that year.

Luckily, I had two older sisters who taught me about sex. It was they who subscribed me to Seventeen so I could learn more. At the time, my mom almost cancelled the subscription because she thought I was too young for the magazine. But that is where I learned what masturbation was and what oral sex was, and so on. So learning from a magazine is not pathetic.
I understand where you are coming from, my mother was similar. I didn't get pulled from the class but it wasn't exactly communication either. I learned many things from reading and friends. That's one reason that I now believe that open parental communication is so important. When you wanted to learn and your mother was not there for you, well I would never call going to a magazine and/or your sisters "pathetic". You have to see things in the context of the type of parent (s) someone has-and other familial factors.

How many people here have parents who literally sat and taught them/discussed everything about sex, well everything within reason-whatever you consider that to be. Like you would get in a graphic sex ed class. I don't know what sex ed classes are like in 2008.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:40 AM   #37
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She has until 4PM Friday to return the book. If she used all of this energy and determination to fight things that are really dangerous to children, just think what she could accomplish.



LEWISTON - A local woman said Wednesday she's prepared to go to jail rather than return a library book about sexuality that she calls "dangerous" to children.

JoAn Karkos, 64, was confined to a courtroom at 8th District Court for about an hour after she was ordered by a judge to hand over the borrowed book: "It's Perfectly Normal: Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex and Sexual Health."

Judge Valerie Stanfill revised her order shortly after noon, giving Karkos until the end of the week to produce the property of Lewiston Public Library. Karkos also was ordered to pay a $100 fine within a month.

Talking with reporters outside the courthouse Wednesday, Karkos said she had no intention of giving up the book she claims violates the city's obscenity ordinance. She said the library needs to change its book selection policies to conform with the city's ordinances. She called her actions "civil disobedience."

During her half-hour trial Wednesday morning, Karkos, who represented herself, argued why the book shouldn't be available at the library. Judge Stanfill sustained repeated objections by city attorney Trish McAllister, who said Karkos' arguments were not relevant to the charges.

Stanfill agreed.

"Even if this was the most obscene book ever published in the world, it is not a defense against the charge," Stanfill said. While Karkos offered to pay for the book, Stanfill told Karkos she couldn't force the sale of somebody else's property against their wishes.

Stanfill ruled that Karkos had violated the library's policy and ordered her to return the book. The judge asked Karkos where the book was.

"I have it in my possession," Karkos said. She paused, then repeated that general answer each time the judge pressed her. Finally, Karkos said she had the book with her.

"Then return it right now," Stanfill said.

"I'm going to hang onto the book, your honor," Karkos said.

Stanfill advised Karkos she could be held in contempt of court if she refused to comply with a court order.

"Please return the book," the judge said.

"Your honor, I cannot return the book," Karkos said after a pause.

"I am ordering that book be returned today," Stanfill said. She told Karkos she would have to stay in the courtroom until she gave up the book. After the judge left the bench, a court officer ordered the public out of the courtroom.

Karkos sat in the courtroom until shortly after noon when the judge returned and revised her order, giving Karkos until 4 p.m. Friday to return the book.

Stanfill said she had no intention of hauling away Karkos in handcuffs and making her a martyr for failing to return a library book, said McAllister, who had returned to the courtroom.

Library Director Rick Speer, the only witness other than Karkos to testify during the short trial, said he was pleased with the outcome. "We felt that one person does not have the power to keep the book from 36,000 citizens of Lewiston."

After Karkos' actions were picked up by the media, the library received eight copies of the sexual education book from people around the country, including parents and concerned educators, Speer said.

The book has circulated 48 times over the past 13 years, Speer said. Karkos is the only Lewiston resident to formally complain about the book, he said.

"We believe an educated person is an empowered person," he said.

Speer, who has held his post at the library for 24 years, said Karkos borrowed the book last summer, then sent him a letter saying she planned to keep it because she didn't think it was fit for children. She enclosed a check for $20.95 to cover the cost.

Speer returned her check, explaining that the book was not for sale. He also explained the process she could follow if she believed the book should be pulled from the library's shelf.

Under cross-examination by the city's attorney, Karkos said she didn't bother formally challenging the book's placement.

"Absolutely not," she said. "I knew I didn't stand a chance."

The book, written by Robie H. Harris and illustrated by Michael Emberley, was published in 1993. It features frank but cartoon-like pictures of naked people in chapters on topics such as abstinence, masturbation and sexually transmitted diseases.

Championed by Planned Parenthood and criticized by conservative groups such as Concerned Women for America, the book has been sold in 25 countries and translated into 21 languages.

In her closing arguments, Karkos accused the public library of contributing to an epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases by disseminating prurient information.

"Children are not meant to be sexually active," she said.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:46 AM   #38
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The book has circulated 48 times over the past 13 years, Speer said.
I bet the new copies of the book the library received will circulate a whole hell of a lot more than that!
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:54 AM   #39
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Talking with reporters outside the courthouse Wednesday, Karkos said she had no intention of giving up the book she claims violates the city's obscenity ordinance. She said the library needs to change its book selection policies to conform with the city's ordinances. She called her actions "civil disobedience."
I love how all these self-important busybodies think that they know the law better than judges.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:00 AM   #40
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How many people here have parents who literally sat and taught them/discussed everything about sex, well everything within reason-whatever you consider that to be. Like you would get in a graphic sex ed class. I don't know what sex ed classes are like in 2008.
Not mine, I learned it all in school. The school I went to studies the various "systems" of the body in 5th grade, finishing with the reproductive system. The parents know when it's coming and are encouraged to talk to the kids. I remember it being pretty thorough and objective, at least as much as it can be when you are 9 years old. On the last day, the boys go with the boy teacher and the girls go with the girl teacher. We LOVED the girl teacher, so we talked to her for hours, asked her everything we wanted to ask. I know some girls asked her things they would not have asked their mothers! At the end, I didn't really have any more questions so I told my mom it was cool and that was that. I never really discussed it at all with my parents, but it's not that they weren't willing to talk about it. Then in 7th grade you have an entire course on sex ed, but that course is more about STDs, pregnancy, abortion, how to set personal boundaries and say no, when something crosses the line to assault or rape, etc.

I've always thought the sex ed I got was more then adequate. I don't ever remember anyone lying to me, withholding info, refusing to answer questions, or only giving me half an answer (like only giving adoption as an option, not abortion). I went to a pretty conservative private school.

The one thing I did learn mostly from my friends was about having periods. By the time I got mine (still very early at age 11), many friends already had (and some were even on the pill already, there's were so bad). I was self-conscious about it at first and was mad that my mom told my dad, but it wasn't like I didn't know what was going on or what to do.
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