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Old 10-24-2001, 08:06 PM   #21
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Judah:

You have posted another interesting article! It is along the same lines of what I heard from one of my former (college) History professors last night at a forum: it is as much about modernism vs. purism as it as Israel vs. Palestine, Iraq vs. U.S., etc.

And it does indeed go back to the post-Ottoman era, when Britain, France and the U.S. were all vying, in different ways, for influence in the region. The irony there is that Turkey, the center of the Ottoman Empire, is nearly 100% Muslim by population, but maintains a completely secular government, much like several of the former Soviet republics in Central Asia. Yet today, each of these nations are fighting off Wahabi-type fundamentalist groups who wish to impose "shar'ia" govenments. I think this is why many of the Eastern European nations and former Soviet Republics have agreed to cooperation with the U.S., in hopes that such groups will be stifled all around.

And Anthony makes a good point as well; depending on Saudi Arabia's commitment is betting on a very thin line, being as it is the most sacred and religiously strict of Islamic states.

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Old 10-25-2001, 05:30 PM   #22
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I felt sadness on the day of September 11.... In fact, the whole Islamic Center in Massachusetts felt the same way, we lost some of our own people in this tragic event... Not only that, but we feel very very very much against the people who did this.... We all know their goin to hell.... Anyways, we had a big congrigation of Muslim, Jewish, and Christian people, for a day of prayers, it was very peaceful.... We we all felt as one....
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Old 10-25-2001, 05:47 PM   #23
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Bama:
Here's a link/story that fills in the gaps re: Bin Laden's emergence. You've probably read a lot of this information in other places, but this site is often a good alternative to mainstream media:
http://www.public-i.org/excerpts_01_091301.htm
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Old 10-25-2001, 09:25 PM   #24
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Yes, Judah, that is indeed a very detailed article to say the least!

I believe excerpts from a similar article were in the Sunday edition of our local paper (Birmingham News) not long ago, alongside excerpts from a biography of Osama bin Laden a Westerner had written. I think your author's use of the word "mid-wife" to describe the U.S.'s relationship with bin Laden in the 80s is reasonably fair. He was fighting alongside many of the forces we were supporting, in fighting a common enemy but with an uncommon goal. In fact, he disdained the motives and the presence of the U.S. even at that time, but accepted our involvement because he was not in his position of power of revery at the time.

I think in the 1990s as the Iraqi-Saudi conflict was emerging, I cannot blame Saudi Arabia for choosing our alliance instead of his, both for the practical sense (540,000 plus advanced military hardware from the U.S. as opposed to a militia of 4,000 Arab-Afghan refugees, more or less) plus the economic history between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia (even though we only import 17% of our oil from the area, that is a HUGE part of the Saudi economy). But this is when bin Laden's fundamentalist, and in my opinion racist, views were emerging, and with that he hoped for this force of 4,000 veterans to grow stronger very quickly. And he was particularly diturbed by our military's presence on the soil of the Muslim Holy state.

If we stayed out of the Arab Peninsula and Persian Gulf in the early 1990s, I feel that Saddam Hussein would have done to bin Laden's Arab-Afghan army and any Saudi allies they recruited, the same he has done to the Khurds and Shiites in northern Iraq, once and IF he had retreated the Saudis (I doubt he would have toppled them completely).

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Old 10-27-2001, 06:03 AM   #25
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Here's an example of an opportunity wasted.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=101757

Britain's military chief has also been quoted as saying "We are rewriting the rules as we go along". Do they have the full story of what they are dealing with?


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Old 10-27-2001, 05:25 PM   #26
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The fiercely proud Islamic community - roughly a third of humanity - is trapped in a historical impasse. For it is the West and Western values that have triumphed globally: our economic model, our science, our individualism, our notion of women's rights and our sexually-charged consumer culture. Leave aside for a moment quite how this has happened, but the Islamic - and particularly
the Arab - world is an economic failure.

Sure, go ahead and call Islam a failure.... But last time i checked, it was the fastest growing religeon..... Not only that, but watch how u generalize things... Who r u to talk about the Islamic religeon... Do you study it? Do u have great knowlegde of it? No, I know my religeon better then u, so please don't insult it in anyway... Do not call it a failure... It's like me calling Christianity or some other religeon a failure. Though u might have a couple of good points, DON'T GET HIGH ON YOURSELf and whatever so-called knowledge u have... Cuz, I'm telling u, i was reading what u said and agreed some what with some of your points (or facts)... But once u said that Islamic and Arab states are economically a failure, I was totally turned off...
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Old 10-27-2001, 05:52 PM   #27
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Amna , trully i ( I'ME'MINE is not a religous person , but a Jedi Knight ) think that a combination religion+business is full of shit , and it doesn't matter what kind of is it . Maybe hundreds millions years from now we 'll live in peace . UNTIL THE END OF THE WORLD ............

[This message has been edited by IvanClaytonJnr (edited 10-27-2001).]
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Old 10-27-2001, 07:33 PM   #28
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Amna:

Who called Islam a failure?

~U2Alabama
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Old 10-27-2001, 07:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
Amna:

Who called Islam a failure?

~U2Alabama
Nobody. George Kerevan, a writer for The Scotsman, called the Islamic and Arab states economic failures.
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Old 10-29-2001, 02:04 PM   #30
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Thanks, Speedracer. Amna, I hope you did realize that It was not I that was making those comments, and that I had posted the newspaper article from the Scotsman. And, Speedracer's right, the article does not denigrate Islam in any way or talk. It's talking about the Arab countries' economies, as far as I can tell. And, i agree with you, it wouldn't make much sense if anyone commented on whether a religion is a success or a failure...i mean, it's all up to an individual to decide whether theire religion fails them or not, otherwise, such comments don't mean much.

Also, if your comments were meant for me and not the newspaper writer, you should know that i grew up Moslem (born in Pakistan, a country that's one of the biggest economic failures in history, and which just happens to be Moslem), have read/studied the Quran in three languages (Arab, Urdu and English) and know a lot about it...though, i must admit, the religion failed me...er...sorry, i failed the religion, and do not follow it (or any others). I do understand and respect "the message" and think it's a good one, but...not for me, i guess.

Mirrorball Man: i read that story over the weekend, too. It seems our (western) vaunted "intelligence" agencies failed big time prior to Sept. 11 (even though they stopped many, smaller, potential terrorist acts from occuring around the world), and are continuing their intelligence boo-boos in Afghanistan. Hope we don't equip our own troops for failure such as this one that cost Abdul Haq his life.
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Old 10-31-2001, 01:27 AM   #31
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I am terribly sorry for jumping on ur throats... Teaches me for reading these things at 1 or 2am.... Anyways, i'm sorry that i jumped at ur throat.....
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Old 10-31-2001, 01:45 AM   #32
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BY THE WAY, I just came back from the Providence concert... and omigod, i was touched.... The concert was like a concert of peace and unity..... I'm sorry if i'm making barely any sense, i'm exhausted. Anyways, Bono made a very cool statement about the comparison between the terrorists in Ireland and the Terrorists of the Middle East, and how they should not be mistaken as the Muslim or Catholic population..... He was very touching when he said out loud "I hope my Muslim brothers and sisters dont' have to deal with what the Irish Catholics had to deal with" - or something like that... But he made such a nice point... I just wanted to jump on stage and give him the biggest hug.... Not only that, but the whole concert was soooo beautiful. No fan got to go on stage but he made total connection with everyone...
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