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Old 08-13-2001, 03:42 AM   #21
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C'mon people, ignore the troll.

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Old 08-13-2001, 03:43 AM   #22
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I'm sick of one Party that no one is invited to except the economic elite; bonoman is right, and what i was trying to say before was that I HATE black & white politics, where everything is either one or the other, luckily however, the bastards have to compromise with each other and they can't do too much damage
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Old 08-13-2001, 03:47 AM   #23
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Well, ignore the troll after this brief response:
Bono is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Edge is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Adam is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Larry is a liberal thiner, both politically and morally.
Many, many people who post to interference are liberal thinkers, both politically and morally.

We all make you sick?

You're attitude here certainly makes ME feel a bit sick.

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Old 08-13-2001, 07:16 AM   #24
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Interesting:
2)Protection of religious freedom (yes, for EVERY religion)
3)Belief in small government
1)Anti-Death Penalty
1)Ethical treatment of animals.

80'sU2isbest, (apart perhaps what you allude to by "small government"), the above could all be consistent with liberal philosophy.

Wether or not you like it, you do espouse SOME liberal values (hope you aren't feeling a bit sick). And there is nothing wrong with that - because we live in the 21st century where these values have become ingrained as values that all humans have.

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Old 08-13-2001, 09:29 AM   #25
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you know, it's funny really. Republicans always talk about how they are the defenders of religion and morality etc. But the only religion they are ever defending is christianity.

I can't remember the last time I saw a conservative trumping the rights of the muslims, orthodox jews, hindus, or any of the other hundred of religions that are practiced in this country.....

No, they just want the ten commandments in every classroom.....

Sorry, I know that's a really sarcastic comment. I'm not attacking you 80'sU2...I just don't get the conservative attitude in this respect.

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Old 08-13-2001, 09:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by popkidu2:

I can't remember the last time I saw a conservative trumping the rights of the muslims, orthodox jews, hindus, or any of the other hundred of religions that are practiced in this country.....
Wel, you don't know me. I do indeed trump the rights of other religions to worship as they please in this country without fear of discrimination.

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Old 08-13-2001, 09:56 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crzy4Bono:
In fact, I would argue that one of your points above, working toward religious freedom and acceptance for all religions is clearly NOT embraced by the right, which tends to be hard-line christian only, with little regard for other belief systems.

I would like an example of this, please.

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Old 08-13-2001, 10:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoomerang II:
Interesting:
2)Protection of religious freedom (yes, for EVERY religion)
3)Belief in small government
1)Anti-Death Penalty
1)Ethical treatment of animals.

80'sU2isbest, (apart perhaps what you allude to by "small government"), the above could all be consistent with liberal philosophy.

Wether or not you like it, you do espouse SOME liberal values (hope you aren't feeling a bit sick). And there is nothing wrong with that - because we live in the 21st century where these values have become ingrained as values that all humans have.

Sorry, but small government is NOT a liberal philosophy. And I did admit that ny anti-death penalty and ethical treatment of animals views were basically "liberal" views. You should hear me argue with my friends about hunting. This may start another argument, but I believe it's wrong to hunt if you are able to just buy meat at the store.

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Old 08-13-2001, 10:55 AM   #29
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Originally posted by Crzy4Bono:

4. I'm not going to get into the abortion issue with you here. But I would just question a system that encourages the poor to have unwanted children and then eliminates the social support structure that helps them care for those children. Where are all of the pro-life folks when it is time to raise those kids? Educate them? Clothe them?

I agree with pretty much all you said Crzy4Bono especially your fourth point. I always find it hypocritical when pro-life people only worry about the unborn and not the born. As you pointed out, no one in the pro-life movement seems to worry about those in need AFTER they are born!
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Old 08-13-2001, 11:28 AM   #30
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While I agree that small government is a good idea in theory, the smaller the government, the greater we are controlled by HUGE corporations who are not elected nor looking out for our best interests...I would rather have a bigger government fighting against BIG CORPORATIONS who would have us all working for minimum wage if they could!
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Old 08-13-2001, 11:50 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crzy4Bono:
4. I'm not going to get into the abortion issue with you here. But I would just question a system that encourages the poor to have unwanted children and then eliminates the social support structure that helps them care for those children. Where are all of the pro-life folks when it is time to raise those kids? Educate them? Clothe them?
They're all over the place. Ever hear of Crisis pregnancy centers? Most of thos are run by conservatives. Conservatives/pro-lifers run charity organizations all over the place. Heck, the person who probably helped more people than anyone in the world was a pro-lifer, Mother Theresa. On top of all that, Conservatives adopt disadvantaged children every bit as much as Liberals do. The idea that Conservatives somehow "care less" about children than Liberals is an unsubstantiated lie, invented by top dog Liberals like Tom Daschle, to scare the country into thinking that conservatives/pro-lifers don't care about anyone other than themselves. Would you care for me to compile a list of children's charities founded and run by conservatives?

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 08-13-2001).]
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Old 08-13-2001, 12:25 PM   #32
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80sU2, I am well aware of who you are and what you're all about. You have been active on this forum longer than I, but I've been checking in on Interference since before this forum existed. I remember when Joel first started advertising Interference on Wire and all the brouhaha that resulted.
I've read, (with considerable amusement) many of your postings in the past. Anyone who joins a U2 forum with a username like "80sU2isBest" is deliberatetly rattling cages. Anyone who starts a thread entitled "Liberal Philosophy Makes Me Sick" is a troll.
I suppose what I dislike most about conservatives is just this sort of thing. Their smug sense of superiority and their unjustified sense of moral superiority.
You can protest all you want 80s, but when you say that the philosophy and world view of a person makes you "sick" you are talking about a large part of what makes up that person. Suggesting that there are a "few" liberals who pass your muster is arrogance of the worst kind.

After reading your list of beliefs I was struck by how "Liberal" three of them were. Do you really hate liberals or do you hate a misconception of what Liberalism is? But then you'd have to be a liberal thinker to question yourself like that wouldn't you?

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Old 08-13-2001, 12:43 PM   #33
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80, feelin' a lil green under the gills cause we all don't see eye to eye???

Take some Tums and learn to deal with it, buddy.

I've been called a "Liberal" before and I refuse to take offense to it.
And I am tryin hard NOT to find Conservatives as greedy, heartless, power hungry, egomaniacs.

I do tend to side on many Liberal issues, EXCEPT for abortion. I believe that not only is abortion murder, but that it degrades human dignity (as does executions). I believe it is wrong to correct someone's irresponsible behavior by destrying a future being, and destroying their own mental and spiritual well-being.

I tend to look at the "Beautitudes" as a guide.

Anyway... Try to get along, people.

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Old 08-13-2001, 12:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

I would like an example of this, please.
Here are just a few examples, from the moral majority. I would like to make the point that I am a Christian - I just believe that we need to include others that don't share our beliefs. That is why I take such issue with these statements:

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are
better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.

"The mission of the Christian Coalition is simple," says Pat Robertson. It is "to mobilize Christians -- one precinct at a time, one community at a time -- until once again we are the head and not the tail, and at the top rather than the bottom of our political system." Robertson predicts that "the Christian Coalition will be the most powerful political force in America by the end of this decade." And, "We have enough votes to run this country...and when the people say,'We've had enough,' we're going to take over!"--Pat Robertson

"The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening." -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, Dec. 30, 1981

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine, August 18, 1986

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."--Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991 personal note - as an Episcopalian, I take special exception to being referred to as the "spirit of the Antichrist."

(In this next quote he is talking about apartheid South Africa - I just have no idea what to say here.)
"I think 'one man, one vote,' just unrestricted democracy, would not be wise. There needs to be some kind of protection for the minority which the white people represent now, a minority, and they need and have a right to demand a protection of their rights."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 3/18/92

"NOW is saying that in order to be a woman, you've got to be a lesbian."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 12/3/97
personal note - wHAT????

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians." -- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have
accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/8/92
Personal note - not in my house!

"The public education movement has also been an anti-Christian movement...We can change education in America if you put Christian principles in and Christian pedagogy in. In three years, you would totally revolutionize education in America." --Pat Robertson,"The 700 Club," September 27, 1993.

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."-- George Bush

"If anybody understood what Hindus really believe, there would be no doubt that they have no business administering government policies in a country that favors freedom and equality. ... Can you imagine having the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini as defense minister, or Mahatma Gandhi as minister of health, education, and welfare? The Hindu and Buddhist idea of karma and the Muslim idea of kismet, or fate condemn the poor and the disabled to their suffering. ... It's the will of Allah. These beliefs are nothing but abject fatalism, and they would devastate the social gains this nation has made if they were ever put into practice." --Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 219.

"I am bound by the laws of the United States and all 50 states...I am not bound by any case or any court to which I myself am not a party...I don't think the Congress of the United States is subservient to the courts...They can ignore a Supreme Court ruling if they so choose."--Pat Robertson, Washington Post, June 27,1986)
This guy ran for president? Ack!

"How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?"--Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p.227

"There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore." --Pat Robertson, November 1993 during an address to the American Center for Law and Justice
just curious if he ever read the First Amendment

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America." --Presidential candidate Pat Buchanan addressing the anti-gay rally in Des Moines, 2-11-96

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."--Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue, The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 8-16-93

"We should resist the temptation to identify our religious convictions with the platform of a party or the platitudes of favored politicians."--Ralph Reed, 1996

"We want...as soon as possible to see a majority of the Republican Party in the hands of pro-family Christians by 1996." --Pat Robertson, Denver Post, 10/26/92



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Old 08-13-2001, 12:58 PM   #35
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Matthew_Page0000:

80sU2IsBest has never indicated any hatred for "liberals." I admit he picks some testy thread topics, and makes some very emotional replies at times, but he always does it with class. In fact, you are the closest thing to a cagerattling troll that I see around here.

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Old 08-13-2001, 01:06 PM   #36
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Crzy4Bono:

All but one of those quotes are from the extreme religious right; Pat Robertson fell out of his Presidentila campaign early due to lack of support, just as Gary Bauer did in 2000. Although I agree they do have a stronghold on the Republican party over the abortion issue, I think that is about as far as it goes.

I will post some examples tonight, but there are examples of Republicans and moderate/conservative Democrats working for religious freedom universally, not just for Christians.

And Pat Robertson's comment about Methodists is personally disturbing to me.

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Old 08-13-2001, 01:16 PM   #37
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Crzy4Bono,
I asked for examples you gave me examples.

But that was 17 quotes with only 3 being from someone other than Pat Roberston. This is in no way indicative of the entire right.
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Old 08-13-2001, 01:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
Suggesting that there are a "few" liberals who pass your muster is arrogance of the worst kind. After reading your list of beliefs I was struck by how "Liberal" three of them were. Do you really hate liberals or do you hate a misconception of what Liberalism is? But then you'd have to be a liberal thinker to question yourself like that wouldn't you?
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I never suggested that only three "liberals" pass my muster. There you go again, twisting my words. What I was doing was taking effort to name those liberals in the forum whom I have most enjoyed conversing with.
Is this or is this not a forum for political discussion? What is wrong with stating how you feel about certain moral/political philosophies? If someone had started a thread entitled "Conservative Philosphy Makes Me Sick", would you be calling him/her a "troll"? I somehow doubt it. I've read your posts, also. And you always jump on Conservatives' cases. Although, I don't know why I spend my time arguing with you. You obviously have very strong feelings about me personally, and that will never change. But I don't care. You don't know me, and I don't know you.
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Old 08-13-2001, 01:26 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
Matthew_Page0000:

80sU2IsBest has never indicated any hatred for "liberals." I admit he picks some testy thread topics, and makes some very emotional replies at times, but he always does it with class. In fact, you are the closest thing to a cagerattling troll that I see around here.
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Old 08-13-2001, 01:44 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trash Can:
80, feelin' a lil green under the gills cause we all don't see eye to eye???

Take some Tums and learn to deal with it, buddy.Peace
Trash Can, I meant to offend no one. I was venting because of something that was said to me about Conservatives. I should not have posted that as a title (I have recently posted an apology thread explaining this). However, I won't apologize for starting a thread in which I state my disagreement with a political/moral philosophy. That is, after all, what a political forum is about.

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