Libby says Bush authorized CIA leaks...NOW do we get to impeach him?

[redsox04]

Actually what i really tihnk, is your political system sucks, you give ONE person immese power and yet you go on about being a democracy when really, its a step or two away from saddam reign.

You're making pretty strong statements for someone who clearly does not know a lot about the American political system. Calling it "a step or two away from saddam reign" is simply absurd and gives you no credibility in your arguments.

 

[Irvine511]

Well, instead of making smart ass comments, maybe explain WHY you think im ignorant? I'm not expecting bush to be escorted from the white house in cuffs, hat im saying is that for all your simpering, all your bitching, you do NOTHING. for everyone going on and on and ooooooon over Iraq and WMD and NOW fecking Iran and North Korea and how he seems like a simpleton making the most important desicions of YOUR lives you just sit back have a bitch to people around you and do nothing. Is that how a wonderful "democracy" is suppose to work?

and just what the fuck do you know about me?

i'm sorry, but if you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to make a post involving some substance that demonstrates even a small grip on the complexity of international affairs.

your comments about America and now Americans are made of the same stuff as racism, sexism, and anti-semitism: baseless generalizations, a refusal to view people as individuals, scapegoating, and assigning characteristics of a group to individuals because it serves your own purposes.

and the most diverse society? LMAO. Whatever...hahahahah

sweet pea, go check out the demographics of the United States, understand that in many cities there is no "majority" just many different minorities, take into account the massive influx if new immigrants every single year, take into account that there are more people trying to get into the US than all the other countries in the world combined, take into account that upwards of 20% of most major cities are comprised of foreign born citizens, and then start laughing your ass off.

 

[anitram]

I don't know that it's the most diverse either, frankly.

Toronto is more diverse than any city in the US, including the NYC and this is per the United Nations. It is actually the most multicultural city in the world and nearly 50% of its population was not even born in Canada. There are others in Canada like Vancouver and Montreal where the level of diversity is like nothing I've seen in even the largest US cities. Plus, here you don't get the sense of ghettos like in the US - some ethnic groups do form areas like your usual Chinatown, etc but the ghetto segregation and mentality that's present in the US just doesn't exist here, not on those levels.

But apart from that, I'm not sure what dazzlingamy expects anyone to do?

Grab Bush and Caucescu him on the WH lawn?

I personally think he's a thug and a liar, but people voted him in when they had the opportunity to vote him out. Like it or not, at the time of the election, some half of your countrymen who voted felt he was super duper, even if it may disgust you.

I kind of feel sorry for the Americans abroad because they have to put up with a lot of crap even when they didn't vote for this ass. I feel sorry for me as well with my accent, because people will assume I'm American in Europe once again this summer and the idea of explaining how you really can't stand Bush either gets tiresome after a while.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't know that it's the most diverse either, frankly.

Toronto is more diverse than any city in the US, including the NYC and this is per the United Nations. It is actually the most multicultural city in the world and nearly 50% of its population was not even born in Canada. There are others in Canada like Vancouver and Montreal where the level of diversity is like nothing I've seen in even the largest US cities. Plus, here you don't get the sense of ghettos like in the US - some ethnic groups do form areas like your usual Chinatown, etc but the ghetto segregation and mentality that's present in the US just doesn't exist here, not on those levels.

anecdotal evidence of one city vs. another probably isn't helpful here, since i've been to both Montreal and Toronto and i didn't notice any kind of increased diversity, especially when compared to a city like New York or Chicago or San Francisco.

anyway, Wikipedia says this:

[q]According to the 2005 CIA World Fact (an official statistics agency), America racial composition is:

White
81.7%, or 241 million (includes those who declared themselves as white-Hispanics; those of Middle Eastern and North African descent; and others who checked "Some other race".)
69%, or 204 million (excludes white-Hispanics, but includes Middle Easterners, North Africans, and others who checked "Some other race".)
Black or African American 12.9% or 36.4 million,
Asian 4.2% or 11.9 million,
American Indian 1.4% or 4.1 million,which includes those of mixed race or more than race in addition to Native Americans
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander 0.2%
Two or more races 2.4%

The Census Bureau considers Hispanic to be any person with national origins in Latin America or Spain (ie. Spaniards, Cubans, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, etc.), and thus may be of any race.

The American population is therefore only around 69% White (206 million people)when the definition of white is a person of pure European Ancestry.

Hispanics of any race 14.1%, or 41.3 million.
By ethnicity, Hispanics comprise 14% of the American population, surpassing African Americans as America's largest de facto ethnic minority.
[/q]



i couldn't find a comparable listing for Canada, but it did have this to say:

[q]Ethnicity

Visible minorities
Note that Aboriginal peoples are not considered visible minorities.

Population Per cent of
population
Chinese 1,029,395 3.5%
Indo Canadian 917,075 3.1%
Black 662,210 2.2%
Filipino 308,575 1.0%
Latin American 216,975 0.7%
Southeast Asian 198,880 0.7%
Arab 194,680 0.7%
West Asian 109,285 0.4%
Korean 100,660 0.3%
Japanese 73,315 0.2%
Visible minority, n.i.e. 98,920 0.3%
Multiple visible minorities 73,875 0.2%
Total visible minority population 3,983,845 13.4%
Source: Statistics Canada, 2001 Census, 97F0010XCB2001002
[/q]



so, it's really not even close.

as for Australia ...

[q]Ethnic groups
Caucasian 92%, Asian 7%, Aboriginal and other 1% [/q]



and this is not at all to say anything negative about Australian or Canadian society. i find many things to admire about them, and have spent a fair amount of time in Canada, both in Toronto and Montreal, as well as the Toronto suburbs. however, i don't think either country yet has the diversity that you'll find in the US, and i also don't think that sweeping generalizations about ghettoization really hold up under scrutiny. it's very dangerous to generalize about 300m people.

 

[Irvine511]

II personally think he's a thug and a liar, but people voted him in when they had the opportunity to vote him out. Like it or not, at the time of the election, some half of your countrymen who voted felt he was super duper, even if it may disgust you.

but this isn't correct either. many people voted for Bush because they couldn't stand Kerry -- when you have a two party system, you simply have to make a choice, and as we've seen in Bush's approval ratings, many people who voted for him don't seem to like him very much.

i despise bush. i am against almost everything he stands for. but it also irks me when people look at the US and see only what they need to see in order to reinforce their worldview. it's really easy to do. i can do it as well. but it's still bad thinking, and that's what's gotten me on a bit of a tear in this thread -- thinking so lacking in nuance that even Bush, not known for taking any notice of details, might take pause.

 

[yolland]

Thanks for the stats, Irvine. I think we could probably all argue until we're blue in the face about which are the world's most diverse countries--there aren't really any universally agreed upon criteria for measuring "diversity," and no two countries break their populations down into quite the same categories, making precise comparisons difficult. But the demographic contrasts to Australia and Canada you cited are interesting.

for all your simpering, all your bitching, you do NOTHING. for everyone going on and on and ooooooon over Iraq and WMD and NOW fecking Iran and North Korea and how he seems like a simpleton making the most important desicions of YOUR lives you just sit back have a bitch to people around you and do nothing. Is that how a wonderful "democracy" is suppose to work?

What sort of "doing something" do you have in mind? The US is not a parliamentary system; Congress cannot propose a vote of no confidence to seek a President's resignation. Impeachment proceedings would first require a finding of treason, bribery, or other high crimes against the state--and even if they did result in conviction and removal, that would simply mean the Presidency being assumed by the next person in the line of presidential succession...i.e., the Vice President. Short of staging a coup, I'm not sure what else precisely you expect Americans who "bitch" about the Bush Administration to do.

 

[anitram]

anecdotal evidence of one city vs. another probably isn't helpful here, since i've been to both Montreal and Toronto and i didn't notice any kind of increased diversity, especially when compared to a city like New York or Chicago or San Francisco.

You may have not noticed, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

From the City of Toronto:

Over 100 languages and dialects are spoken here, and over one third of Toronto residents speak a language other than English at home.

* 43 per cent of Toronto's population (1,051,125 people) reported themselves as being part of a visible minority, up from 37 per cent (882,330) in 1996.
* the top four visible minority groups in Toronto were:
o Chinese at 259,710 or 10.6 per cent of our population
o South Asian at 253,920 or 10.3 per cent
o Black at 204,075 or 8.3 per cent
o Filipino at 86,460 or 3.5 per cent
* 49 per cent of Toronto's population was born outside of Canada, up from 48 per cent in 1996
* new immigrants to Toronto since 1991 number 516,635, representing 21 per cent of our population.
* fully one in five Toronto residents arrived in this country during the 1990s
* one in four children between 5 and 16 in the City of Toronto are new immigrants having arrived between 1991 and 2001
* while the City of Toronto had 48.7 per cent of the GTA's population in 2001, we were home to:
o 57.8 per cent of all GTA immigrants (1,214,625)
o 64.4 per cent of all new immigrants that arrived in the GTA during the 1990s (516,635)
o 60.4 per cent of all GTA residents identified as belonging to a visible minority (1,051,125)
* Toronto has 79 ethnic publications

There are only 3 cities in the US larger than Toronto - Chicago, LA, NYC. None of them have this level of diversity, and according to the UN, no other city in the US does either. You may have cities with a larger "minority" population like Hispanics in Miami, but not a larger diversity than is seen here.

It may be nitpicking, but there you have it.

And as for this:

when you have a two party system, you simply have to make a choice

Since when? Somebody held a gun to your head?

You can always vote for a fringe 3rd party or a candidate like Nader. And if you don't find them appealing, then NOT voting is an option.

You mean to tell me that people were forced to make a choice between Kerry and Bush and so even though they hated Bush they still went and voted for him? What kind of a pathology is this? I would have just stayed home if those were my options.

People who bothered to go out to the polls (which was what, like 50% of your voters only?), found something in the candidates or the parties that appealed to them. The other 50% either didn't or didn't care. They stayed home. Those who according to you voted for Bush because they "simply had to make a choice" could have elected to stay home instead of help him get elected a second time.

 

[Irvine511]

You may have not noticed, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

It may be nitpicking, but there you have it.

well, yes it is nitpicking, and we are talking about societies, and Toronto is a single city. and i see nothing about Montreal.

so there you have it.



[q]Since when? Somebody held a gun to your head?

You can always vote for a fringe 3rd party or a candidate like Nader. And if you don't find them appealing, then NOT voting is an option.[/q]


no, NOT voting is not an option. people died so that you can vote, and choosing not to vote isn't much of a protest. i find nothing commendable about abstaining from the political process. and as much as i wish i had a better alternative, i found Kerry preferable to Nadar (who runs mostly out of vanity, little else).

i also find it a little bit strange when Canadians, who will go to great lengths to explain that they are not "America lite" or "America, Colder," and then will chastize the US for not having the same values, priorities, and political system as Canada.

life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is going to yield a vastly different society than peace, order, and good government.


[q]You mean to tell me that people were forced to make a choice between Kerry and Bush and so even though they hated Bush they still went and voted for him? What kind of a pathology is this? I would have just stayed home if those were my options.[/q]


well, 45% of the country sits at home, so i'm sure you can find some people who agree with you. i feel that not voting is an act of cowardice, and laziness, and privileged apathy, and far more of a pathology than making the best decision one can with the choices one has.

hate is a strong word, as well. i wasn't aware that political opinion could be reduced to such simplistic emotions -- i didn't LOVE Kerry, but i voted for him; i don't HATE Bush, i just deplore him.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Jeeeez, you really go over the top don't you Irvine. Firstly, having a go at me because im painting all americans with the same brush or something is absurd. I was making a sterotypical TONGUE IN CHEEK observation (like say, everyone from the uk is uptight and have bad teeth, australians get drunk and have brawls etc) that other countries laugh about and there are thousands of countless jokes (ever heard the one about the americans sewing canadian flags to their backpacks so ppl won't think they american and have a go?) I didnt think i had to put 'hahahaha' or 'JOKING' after it as its clearly a social humourous comment and nothing more, but i will take that into consideration anyway.

And with the whole Bush Administration, you all answered my question, there is nothing you can do is there? And that is what is so frustrating to me, that a president can make all these bad choices some on ACTUAL LIES that affect the WHOLE WORLD and nothing can be done. I don't understand why there isn't some independant civil agency that people can put a vote of 'no confidence' through and GWB is suspended from duty until he explains what the hell he is doing and someone else can take over. I'm not bemoaning the fact that he got voted in, i understand kerry was a poor substitute, but you think the democrats would be bank rolling atm, getting together into one huge agreeing party and going after bush. ITs like here, we always have one party putting the boot in to the other and calling them on every desicion they make, publicising what people think. I'm not having a go at all the "bitching" im just saying it leads t a lot of despair when you hate something but have no channels to actually do something about it.

And about diversity, i don't know where you got your Australia stats but 'caucasian' encompassed about a half of the world, and i though diversity came from culture rather then the colour or appearance of your skin. *shrugs*

 

[AliEnvy]

life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is going to yield a vastly different society than peace, order, and good government.

And how's that working out for ya?

You are as guilty of generalizing and stereotyping as any of us in FYM.

 

[A_Wanderer]

life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is going to yield a vastly different society than peace, order, and good government.

It's true, we punish people for trying to excercise free speech - but it's done in the name of order and harmony

 

[indra]

And about diversity, i don't know where you got your Australia stats but 'caucasian' encompassed about a half of the world, and i though diversity came from culture rather then the colour or appearance of your skin. *shrugs*

I had an Iranian prof who stated that Iranians were caucasians, not Arabs (this was during the Iran/Iraq war), and my parents were friends with an Indian (from India) guy who said "I'm caucasian." I'm not sure what the real definition of caucasian is, but to most people of European caucasian ancestry, these two examples wouldn't be considered it. But maybe they are, so perhaps the word caucasian and what it encompasses is part of the problem when we look at statistics to determine diversity.

 

[dazzlingamy]

mmm i agree, its quite hard to lump people in 'asian' and 'caucasian' as uk people say indians are asians, while we here in australia say they are indian...i think its more perniant to say that most first world "english speaking" countires are quite diverse, from the uk, to the european union, to australia, NZ Canada and the states. To actually call one more diverse then the other is strange, as its quite hard to compare!

 

[Irvine511]

And how's that working out for ya?

You are as guilty of generalizing and stereotyping as any of us in FYM.

erm, excuse me?

please point this out.

i simply said that the US and Canada are different places, and the creeds "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is a different mindset than "peace, order, and good government."

and, no, i would not choose to move to Canada at this point in my life. while i find much to admire about Canada, there is much i admire about the US as well, and for now, i'm happy here, despite the past 6 years.

and, please, is there anything less productive than a "my country is better than your country" pissing match?

not once have i asserted that the US is "better" in any way, shape, or form; i have merely objected to sweeping generalizations, and made the factual statement on the diversity of the US, as defined by the presence of various race and cultures, when compared to Australia and Canada.

 

[Irvine511]

Jeeeez, you really go over the top don't you Irvine. Firstly, having a go at me because im painting all americans with the same brush or something is absurd. I was making a sterotypical TONGUE IN CHEEK observation (like say, everyone from the uk is uptight and have bad teeth, australians get drunk and have brawls etc) that other countries laugh about and there are thousands of countless jokes (ever heard the one about the americans sewing canadian flags to their backpacks so ppl won't think they american and have a go?) I didnt think i had to put 'hahahaha' or 'JOKING' after it as its clearly a social humourous comment and nothing more, but i will take that into consideration anyway.

then you need to work on your communication skills. i'm not the only one who missed your humor.


[q]And with the whole Bush Administration, you all answered my question, there is nothing you can do is there? And that is what is so frustrating to me, that a president can make all these bad choices some on ACTUAL LIES that affect the WHOLE WORLD and nothing can be done. I don't understand why there isn't some independant civil agency that people can put a vote of 'no confidence' through and GWB is suspended from duty until he explains what the hell he is doing and someone else can take over. I'm not bemoaning the fact that he got voted in, i understand kerry was a poor substitute, but you think the democrats would be bank rolling atm, getting together into one huge agreeing party and going after bush. ITs like here, we always have one party putting the boot in to the other and calling them on every desicion they make, publicising what people think. I'm not having a go at all the "bitching" im just saying it leads t a lot of despair when you hate something but have no channels to actually do something about it.[/q]


in case you missed it, there was an election in 2004. and we have a presidential system, not a parlimentary system. we have different governments. there might be more recourse against the incompetent in a parlimentary system, but there's also an inherent dynamism to a system that has a strong executive branch. thigns can happen quickly and decisively, as opposed to the endless compromise and negotiations of coalition governments.

this isn't to say one is better than the other; merely that they are different.

And about diversity, i don't know where you got your Australia stats but 'caucasian' encompassed about a half of the world, and i though diversity came from culture rather then the colour or appearance of your skin. *shrugs*

well, i cited my source for the Australia stats, and diveristy comes from a variety of palces, and often the color of one's skin, especially in a society with a tremendous amount of diveristy, does determine culture. not always, but sometimes.

 

[AliEnvy]

erm, excuse me?

please point this out.

It would take too long to drag out all your posts on the evils of Christianity.

i simply said that the US and Canada are different places, and the creeds "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is a different mindset than "peace, order, and good government."

Oh I know, it was actually this previous comment that bugged me...

scapegoating, and assigning characteristics of a group to individuals because it serves your own purposes.

and, please, is there anything less productive than a "my country is better than your country" pissing match?

Nope, which is why I never go there. Yet here you are ranting about comparisons.

 

[Irvine511]

It would take too long to drag out all your posts on the evils of Christianity.

wow.

there are only so many qualifiers one can attach before it becomes impossible to discern the original intent.

i go to impossible lengths, i bend over backwards (something people are certainly not willing to do in return) to distinguish between Christianity and politicized right wing evangelical whatever-have-you Christianity (more accurately described as Christianism) that currently enjoys a prime seat the the table of Republican politics.

if you're not even willing to read my posts then it's really not worth my time to pay any attention to yours.

Nope, which is why I never go there. Yet here you are ranting about comparisons.

one can make valid comparisons between countries without any sort of value judgement implied.

it is a perfectly valid comparison to say that Toronto is more diverse (by a certain set of standards) than New York.

it is perfeclty valid comparison to say that the United States is a more diverse society than Australia.

in no way is any sort of judgement implied, thusly removing it from any notions of what is and what is not the "better" society.

 

[financeguy]

Is diversity automatically a good thing?

 

[AliEnvy]

there are only so many qualifiers one can attach before it becomes impossible to discern the original intent.

You can attach any qualifiers (assumptions) as you wish.

My only intent was to point out that you use generalizations and stereotypes as well as everyone else. I didn't originally say you made value judgements. Generally you don't, occasionally you do...we all do.

You can, on the other hand, be incredibly indignant and condescending when this is pointed out.

I can tread arrogance myself when pushed but I also won't deny it.

 

[Irvine511]

My only intent was to point out that you use generalizations and stereotypes as well as everyone else. I didn't originally say you made value judgements. Generally you don't, occasionally you do...we all do.

You can, on the other hand, be incredibly indignant and condescending when this is pointed out.

and the point of this is ...
and this is relevant to the discussion how ...

you're right, it is impossible to speak without invoking some sort of generalizations and/or stereotypes; however, some generalizations (the ones back up by facts and statistics as well as thoughtful experience) are better than others.

 

[AliEnvy]

and the point of this is ...
and this is relevant to the discussion how

I suppose because this comment of yours came from out of left field in this thread when no one was making any such claims or comparisons, nor have I seen anything remotely resembling that in FYM since I've been more regularly participating.

i also find it a little bit strange when Canadians, who will go to great lengths to explain that they are not "America lite" or "America, Colder," and then will chastize the US for not having the same values, priorities, and political system as Canada.

however, some generalizations (the ones back up by facts and statistics as well as thoughtful experience) are better than others.

 

[Irvine511]

[q]i also find it a little bit strange when Canadians, who will go to great lengths to explain that they are not "America lite" or "America, Colder," and then will chastize the US for not having the same values, priorities, and political system as Canada.[/q]


well, this is based on experience, having a best friend who's mother is Canadian, having traveled in Canada with them for 2 weeks, having traveled in Europe and meeting Canadians and seeing all the flags sewn onto every imaginable piece of clothing ... it's often the same discussion that i felt was reflected in the (respectful) exchange of posts between myself and anitram: Canadians don't want to be Americans, but Americans should be more like Canadians.

there just seems to me to be a contradiction there. it's like -- so what if America did start to behave more like Canada? would Canada want that?

but i think it's best to let this rest for now, though i think Canadian identity-creation is a very interesting topic.