Let's Really Fight Terrorism. Funding Schools in Saudi Arabia

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Dreadsox

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America's Next Move in the Middle East

By Max Boot

The Times (London), May 18, 2003


The war on terror will be won not only on the battlefield but in schools, says Max Boot

There is some irony, though not of the pleasant sort, in the fact that last week's suicide bombing in Riyadh occurred shortly after it was announced that the remaining American troops would be withdrawn from Saudi Arabia. This move was designed to remove one of the grievances held by Al-Qaeda and its ilk. But Washington seemed to overlook the fact that no matter what happens with the troops, 40,000 American civilians remain in the country.

Perhaps these, too, can be evacuated (though only at the cost of crippling the Saudi monarchy). But what about the Americans in Kuwait? Or Indonesia? Or, for that matter, Britain? Pretty much all of the estimated 3.8m Americans living abroad are inviting targets for terrorism. So are the 291m at home.

There is nothing that the US and its allies can do to mollify Islamist terrorists.

Their fundamental objection is not to this or that policy; it is to the very existence of a modern, secular West, whose leading champion is the United States.

Since appeasement won't work, the West must seek victory. But how? The obvious, if ambitious, answer lies in transforming the Middle East, the breeding ground of this particular brand of savagery. And that is precisely what the Bush administration has set out to do.

In the administration's view, we are in a war, and, while a few battles (Afghanistan, Iraq) have been won, the conflict is far from finished. This is not a war like the second world war that will be won entirely on the battlefield. It is more like the cold war, which must be won by a combination of measures, only some of them military.

The first and most pressing priority is to develop an alternative to the dictatorships that paralyse development in the Arab world. Iraq presents the best opportunity to achieve that goal - but only if the occupation proves as effective as the war that preceded it.

So far, the outlook is far from positive. The Bush administration did astoundingly little planning for the post-war environment. The result is violence and chaos. To its credit, the administration fairly quickly recognised that things were off course and brought in the tough-talking former diplomat Paul Bremer to replace the soft- spoken former general Jay Garner as viceroy.

But tangled lines of authority remain a problem: Bremer promised last Tuesday that US troops would start shooting looters, only to be contradicted the next day by US generals. This is symptomatic of a larger problem: the American military's deep reluctance to undertake peacekeeping, which it views as sissy's work.

American generals complain that they don't have enough troops to police Iraq even though they have more than 160,000 allied soldiers, including 45,000 in Baghdad.

Contrast this with the heyday of empire, when there were never more than 79,000 British soldiers to guard all of India, which is 10 times bigger than Iraq.

Yet even as the coalition struggles to transform Iraq, it cannot lose sight of its neighbours. Iran and Syria are two of the leading sponsors of terrorism in the world and both are said to be acquiring weapons of mass destruction - chemicals and germs in the case of Syria; nukes, chemicals and germs in the case of Iran.

The Bush administration's post-war sabre-rattling may already have had an impact on them. Damascus appears to have reduced its attempts to hinder US forces in Iraq. Tehran is still trying to exert its influence over the Iraqi Shi'ites, but it is doing so peacefully; it has not started a terrorist campaign against coalition troops.

But it's not enough simply to deter Iran and Syria from overt acts of aggression.

The West can never breathe easy as long as such criminal regimes remain in control of such vast resources. And it's not just our enemies that represent a problem. So do our ostensible friends, like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, whose citizens seem to make up the bulk of Al-Qaeda's recruits.

There is only one solution to this problem, and it is called liberal democracy.

Spreading freedom in the Arab world is no easy task, of course, but if democracy could take root in eastern Europe, east Asia and Latin America, there is no theoretical reason why it shouldn't work in the Middle East.

This will ultimately be up to the local people, but America can give them a helping hand, as it has helped other democrats from Poland to the Philippines. The West should heed the eloquent plea issued last week by the Egyptian dissident Saad Eddin Ibrahim to "assist the democratic transformation of the region".

Many people, including apparently Ibrahim himself, seem to think this means emphasising the Israeli-Palestinian "peace process", but that would be a big mistake. The vaunted "road map" leads nowhere. Or rather it leads precisely where the Oslo process did: to mutual recriminations.

Those who think that Israeli concessions can buy peace from Islamic Jihad and Hamas (or even from Yasser Arafat's own al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades) make the same mistake as those who think that US or British concessions can buy peace from Al-Qaeda.

The fundamental problem in the Palestinian Authority is the same as in the rest of the Middle East: lack of liberalism. Developing democratic institutions isn't as sexy as pushing a "peace process", but it must be the West's primary emphasis in the region. Sometimes this will involve forcible regime change, as in Iraq. More often, subtler measures are called for.

Here's one example. Saudi Arabia is notorious for spreading Wahhabism, the most intolerant, hateful breed of Islam, around the world. It spends an estimated $ 3billion to $ 4billion a year on activities that give rise to terrorism. Many poor parents in the Islamic world send their children to Saudi-funded madrasah schools, which preach Wahhabism, simply because they have no alternative education system.

Riyadh can afford to do this because it's rich (GDP: $ 241billion). But America is much, much richer (GDP: $ 10trillion). Why doesn't the US use a few odd billion dollars to pay for secular schools in the Islamic world that teach the skills needed to succeed in the modern world?

This is the kind of unconventional strategy that America must pursue if it is to win this long war against Islamist terror. Military success is important, but it's not enough.
 
I've also read about funding schools for women in Afghanistan, where girls and young women can learn to do everything from reading and writing to trades like nursing. This would be a much better way to spend our defense budget, rather than on more weapons that either don't work or work all too well.
 
paxetaurora,

"This would be a much better way to spend our defense budget, rather than on more weapons that either don't work or work all too well."

So specifically which weapon systems that US soldiers used in Iraq, did not work? What weapon systems would you like to take away from are men and women in the military?
 
IN BRIEF / WASHINGTON, D.C.
a d v e r t i s e m e n t




Three U.S. Troops Killed in Iraq Incidents
From Times Wire Reports

May 19, 2003

Three U.S. troops were killed and four were injured in three separate accidents in Iraq, U.S. Central Command said.

One soldier was killed and three others were injured in the detonation of a piece of unexploded ordnance in Baghdad. Another soldier died from a "non-hostile" gunshot wound, the command said in Kuwait. Also, a U.S. Marine was killed and another was injured after their transport truck rolled over about 19 miles southeast of Samawah in southern Iraq.

Names of the casualties had not been released.
 
If you want to debate weapons systems and what should be eliminated, please, start another thread.

I really thought there would be more of a response about the concept of building "Secular Schools" in Saudi Arabia.


Specifically this part of the article"

Here's one example. Saudi Arabia is notorious for spreading Wahhabism, the most intolerant, hateful breed of Islam, around the world. It spends an estimated $ 3billion to $ 4billion a year on activities that give rise to terrorism. Many poor parents in the Islamic world send their children to Saudi-funded madrasah schools, which preach Wahhabism, simply because they have no alternative education system.

Riyadh can afford to do this because it's rich (GDP: $ 241billion). But America is much, much richer (GDP: $ 10trillion). Why doesn't the US use a few odd billion dollars to pay for secular schools in the Islamic world that teach the skills needed to succeed in the modern world?

This is the kind of unconventional strategy that America must pursue if it is to win this long war against Islamist terror. Military success is important, but it's not enough.
 
Well, a Star Wars-esque missile defense system, for one. Cluster bombs are another good example.

Do you not agree that it would be a a good idea to invest in the future of these nations in a constructive, positive manner rather than just rolling through and letting the poor, illiterate, starving masses put things back together themselves? :grumpy:
 
paxetaurora said:
Do you not agree that it would be a a good idea to invest in the future of these nations in a constructive, positive manner rather than just rolling through and letting the poor, illiterate, starving masses put things back together themselves? :grumpy:

I think some of these countries think they are investing in their own future in a constructive, positive manner with the schools teaching Wahhabism.
 
Yeah this is great in theory. But this administration would much rather spend money in other places. Hell we can't even get them to fund our own schools.
 
nbcrusader said:


I think some of these countries think they are investing in their own future in a constructive, positive manner with the schools teaching Wahhabism.


I'm sure they do. But I wish they'd do what the Turks did back in the '20's and that was to shut down their madrassas and start a secular school system. It's not going to happen; Saudi Arabia will never "secularize" the way Turkey did. It's depressing because that was very good for the Turkish people.
*currently plotting a trip to Turkey to check out their amazing artifacts*
 
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Trying to curb the spread of Wahhabism is exactly what this kind of plan would be trying to accomplish. There's a great commentary by Fareed Zakaria in the new Newsweek about how Saudi Arabia can no longer afford to harbor terrorists, now that Saudi Arabian civilians have been killed. If we can stop the terrorist madrassas by providing secular alternatives, then by all means, we should do it--as Zakaria says, fighting the causes of terrorism rather than simply terrorism itself.
 
Pax, Zakaria is right on the money (as he often is). If someone has the flu, you just don't treat the cough or the sniffles--if you can beat the bug with antibiotics or whatever, that's what's going to get rid of the flu. Ditto with terrorism. We've got to fight the causes of terrorism, not just terrorism. The Saudis are going to have to change if they don't want to lose any more of their citizens. I don't want anyone to lose citizens, I don't care if it's Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, the Palestinians, Morocco, etc, etc.
 
Deep and Pax,

Cluster Bombs when used properly are an effective weapon systems that overall saves more lives than it kills by helping to defeat the enemy in a smaller amount of time. For example, the use of a cluster bomb units whether it be anti-personal or anti-tank on semi-massed enemy units out in the open away from urban area's allows the military to destroy rather quickly, a large concentration of enemy forces before they can dispurse and hide in urban area's.

The largest number of civilian casaulties comes from house to house fighting done by infantry squads. Civilians get caught in the middle of the night between the two sides in close combat and are either killed accidentally or are mistaken for being the enemy. Cluster bombs and other area destruction weapons are not used on urban area's. In addition, Cluster Bombs get a bad rap because it is true that some of them fail to detonate. No one here seems to notice all the other munitions that have the same problem. If your concerned about unexploded ordanance, I understand. But that is a problem with every type of explosive, not just cluster bombs.

I understands liberals opposition to the Star Wars National Missile Defense System, but that was not used in Operation Iraqi Freedom unless you put the Patriot Missile in that catagory. I'm sure you would not be opposed to the Patriot Missile if you had been in Kuwait during the war.
 
People could perhaps offer to fund secular schools in Saudi Arabia. There's no chance in hell of Saudi Arabia "secularizing" a la Turkey. Critics claimed that Turkey had trashed an opportunity to lead the Islamic world, but that's not the way the Turks looked at it. The Saudis want to lead the Islamic world, and Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. Screw secularizing the state, it's not going to happen. Parents who are currently sending their kids to maddrassas (there are various Latin-alphabet spellings of that word, the Turkish is medresse) could be given the choice of sending their kids to a "career-oriented" school. It would take some changes in Saudi society, however. If they let women go to school and work as nurses, etc, etc. they'd have to let them take off their veils. It took secularization in Turkey to take the veils off of the women. The whole "Islamic state" thing is potentially a problem. I hate to say that but how do you keep the veils off of the women without adopting a secular state? Is this impossible? Am I perchance overemphasizing the "problem" with Islamic states and limiting education for women by keeping them "behind the veil"? After all, the women who blew up bombs in Israel and Turkey couldn't have been wearing veils. Why did these women join the groups they did?
 
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I do, but its obvious your main reason for asking is not solely my opinion.
 
Well Sting, I can't speak for Pax, but I think there are several of us who are curious as to if you have any opinion beyond the UN resolutions and your love for our military. Not that these are wrong, but every response somehow relates back to these items. I'm interested in your opinion on this given subject. I think everyone knows where you stand elsewhere.
 
STING2 said:
I do, but its obvious your main reason for asking is not solely my opinion.

I think her main reason was to get the thread on track.

No one doubts, that you are very knowledgeable of the UN and the Resolutions. I have learned a lot chatting with you about such things.

I for one think in theory it is a nice idea, but it is not practical. If outsiders came into our country to run our schools, I would not be happy about it. They would be outsiders and they would be there clearly to influence my opinions of them. The change has to come from within their own nation.

I also hate the idea of money being sent to other countries to fund schools when over the past three years in my district, class sizes are rizing. IN my wife's school, after nine years of teaching there, she is now, 3 people away on the lay off list. That is after nine years. THere have been layoffs over the past two.

In light of these two points, I think it is a nice philosophical way to battle the terrorists, but it is not practical.
 
I agree with you Dread. It's not practical. Saudis would be horrified at the idea of any of their schools being funded by people who are neither Arabic nor Moslem. As awful as these medresse schools are they are just a reflection of Saudi society. It is a very conservative Islamic country. They are going to have to change in some ways or self-destruct. But it's not in our power to change their society. They have to decide to. This is a nice philosophical idea but it would never work.
 
BonoVoxSupastar,


"Well Sting, I can't speak for Pax, but I think there are several of us who are curious as to if you have any opinion beyond the UN resolutions and your love for our military. Not that these are wrong, but every response somehow relates back to these items. I'm interested in your opinion on this given subject. I think everyone knows where you stand elsewhere."

First, I only bring up the issue of the military or UN resolutions if it is relevant to something someone else has just posted. Notice my first response in this thread was in response to something someone else had already posted in this thread!

"I think there are several of us who are curious as to if you have any opinion beyond the UN resolutions and your love for our military"

Thats an unfair and inaccurate characterization of my posts. I've been a member of this forum since August of 2000(first as STING, then STING2 when my account mysteriously disappeared one day) and have had plenty to say on a variety of things in multiple forums in addition to the two things you mentioned above.

I don't understand where this perhaps personal observation of when, where and what a person posts comes from? Whats your point of anylyzing ones posting habbits if they are not personally abusive of another person in the forum? I understand that in this forum, my opinion is a minority opinion, but why should that make one question or make inaccurate or unfair judgements about my postings?

If you don't want a response to a posts of yours about the military or the reasons or legality of war in Iraq, then don't bring those things up in your posts. I'm only responding to things others have posted.
 
My point is, Sting, that we--or at least I--am honestly, genuinely interested in your opinion on funding these schools in Saudi Arabia. Do you or do you not think this would be a constructive thing to do? Why or why not?

(And for any other interested parties, just yesterday I know Sting posted in Just the Bang..., so he does have other interests. :wave: )
 
THIS is what I was talking about in the other 'Is Al-Qaeda Back' thread.

I don't think trying to take over their education would/could actually ever happen, but its the right idea.

Fighting the causes of terrorism, and the support of it, not just the terrorists.
 
STING2 said:
BonoVoxSupastar,


"Well Sting, I can't speak for Pax, but I think there are several of us who are curious as to if you have any opinion beyond the UN resolutions and your love for our military. Not that these are wrong, but every response somehow relates back to these items. I'm interested in your opinion on this given subject. I think everyone knows where you stand elsewhere."

First, I only bring up the issue of the military or UN resolutions if it is relevant to something someone else has just posted. Notice my first response in this thread was in response to something someone else had already posted in this thread!

"I think there are several of us who are curious as to if you have any opinion beyond the UN resolutions and your love for our military"

Thats an unfair and inaccurate characterization of my posts. I've been a member of this forum since August of 2000(first as STING, then STING2 when my account mysteriously disappeared one day) and have had plenty to say on a variety of things in multiple forums in addition to the two things you mentioned above.

I don't understand where this perhaps personal observation of when, where and what a person posts comes from? Whats your point of anylyzing ones posting habbits if they are not personally abusive of another person in the forum? I understand that in this forum, my opinion is a minority opinion, but why should that make one question or make inaccurate or unfair judgements about my postings?

If you don't want a response to a posts of yours about the military or the reasons or legality of war in Iraq, then don't bring those things up in your posts. I'm only responding to things others have posted.

I apologize for any personal response you feel I gave to you. I've just noticed that I and a few others have asked you to stay on topic of the thread since the War Forum has started. I know it's not just you. I apologize for voicing my personal frustrations.
 
No, it's not just Sting. But in this case, we are still waiting for him to share his opinion on what the thread is actually about.
 
TylerDurden said:
I don't think trying to take over their education would/could actually ever happen, but its the right idea.

Fighting the causes of terrorism, and the support of it, not just the terrorists.

Do you think we will ever get a consensus to eliminate Wahhabism, "the most intolerant, hateful breed of Islam"?
 
Well, we can't expect the best of all worlds, so someone will have to make a meta-narrative and work from there. It may be time for a modernist-style cultural revolution that looks disdainfully on "subordinate" cultures. After all, these cultures that we are so delicately trying to preserve, while wanting to eliminate their fanatical elements, certainly feel no remorse for wanting to create a cultural revolution of their own and obliterating ours completely.

The last millennium or two is marked by cultural revolutions, and, like it or not, there are many cultures that are extinct today; some "good" and some "bad."

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I, frankly, don't know what to believe. All I know is that the West and its "enemies" play by different philosophical tenets.

Melon
 
nbcrusader said:


Do you think we will ever get a consensus to eliminate Wahhabism, "the most intolerant, hateful breed of Islam"?

I imagine that *many* Moslems oppose Wahhabism and want to stop the teaching of it. I don't know how many statements, etc, etc by Moslems I've read to the effect of "real Moslems believe in peace" and "we believe in an Islam of tolerance". The people on the 4iraqis discussion board are frustrated about this stuff. It varies from place to place. Turkey is a secular state and heck, they shut down their medresses in the '20's. Saudi Arabia may be the most conservative Islamic country and thus the least likely to shut down their medresses. I wouldn't know if it's even possible to get their medresses to stop teaching Wahhabism and start teaching a more moderate brand of Islam. They may have to if Saudi Arabia is going to fight terrorism at home. The question is how much they are willing to do to stop terrorism. The royal family may have to change tactics with this to save their position in the society. It's so much harder to understand a country like Saudi Arabia.
 
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