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Old 07-22-2002, 08:09 PM   #21
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

That's the exact wording found in the Constitution.

Voluntary prayer at a presidential inauguration is an act of the government respecting a religion. The President, all of those in attendance, all of those watching at home on the television are being forced to combine their politics with one religious doctrine. You can't edit out what you hear during a political rally. It's all one continuous event, in which the government is pushing it's religious beliefs on all those who wish to take a part in their government. This is outlawed in the Constitution.

Would anyone reading this post being outraged if the President said a prayer to Allah, Buddha, or any other non-Christain representation of God? You don't need to answer, because I know a lot of you WOULD be PISSED. You'd get all up-in-arms about how that's not right for the President of a Christain Nation to say those words! You see, that's the point every non-religious person is making.

Those of us who don't necessary believe in a God are as passionate about our beliefs as all the bible-humping morons that caused so much pain and grief in this country.

Keep religion to yourself. The same goes for sexual fetishes, gun collections, singing bass fishes by the name of Billy, and John Tesh records.
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:29 PM   #22
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As I see it, America *should* be run like a professional organization. Professional organizations are, for all practical purposes, completely non-religious. That is not to say that the members of the company aren't religious, but they keep it to themselves. I certainly do wish government would actually live up to the professionalism it repeatly says it wants to be.

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Old 07-22-2002, 08:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano


Those of us who don't necessary believe in a God are as passionate about our beliefs as all the bible-humping morons that caused so much pain and grief in this country.
thanks

I think if you look around you
as a whole, these bible-humping morons don't quite cause the grief as the average white-seperatists or militia-wackos that oppose and urge others to take up arms against the best system in the world.

Quote:
Keep religion to yourself. The same goes for sexual fetishes, gun collections, singing bass fishes by the name of Billy, and John Tesh records.
Perhaps when you start keeping Michael Moron and similair wackos to yourself then you can talk

and there is nothing wrong with Billy-big mouth bass
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:59 PM   #24
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As posted by Z Edge:
"I think if you look around you
as a whole, these bible-humping morons don't quite cause the grief as the average white-seperatists or militia-wackos that oppose and urge others to take up arms against the best system in the world."

--This is off the subject, but I will still disagree with you. White-seperatists are such a small minority anymore that anything they do, or TRY to do is met with laughter and the rolling of eyes. Militia-wackos? Pardon? Are you trying to downgrade the men and women who are exercising their right to bare arms? I don't think they've EVER suggested that we take up arms AGAINST the US government. They have suggested that all Americans ARM THEMSELVES in case the U.S. Government oversteps its bounds and tries to elevate their position in our personal lives, but never have they taught the ethics of un-warranted revolution.

--As for the comment about the "best system in the world". I have to agree with you. America has the best system on paper, but the people running the government are the ones that need a royal kick in the butt.


"Perhaps when you start keeping Michael Moron and similair wackos to yourself then you can talk"

--Speaking about politics is not the same as religion. Honestly, tell me....do you write this nonesense simply to get a rise out of me? It used to work, but now I'm not even smiling. oh, wait....I am smiling. Nevermind
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
--This is off the subject, but I will still disagree with you. White-seperatists are such a small minority anymore that anything they do, or TRY to do is met with laughter and the rolling of eyes. Militia-wackos? Pardon? Are you trying to downgrade the men and women who are exercising their right to bare arms? I don't think they've EVER suggested that we take up arms AGAINST the US government. They have suggested that all Americans ARM THEMSELVES in case the U.S. Government oversteps its bounds and tries to elevate their position in our personal lives, but never have they taught the ethics of un-warranted revolution.
my apologies Danno for lumping together the two very different groups of nuts here. It must be hard to distinguish these exotics from the domestics in a place like Oklahoma, where over 70 known groups are currently operational.


Quote:
--As for the comment about the "best system in the world". I have to agree with you. America has the best system on paper, but the people running the government are the ones that need a royal kick in the butt.
While the system is not perfect, I believe it is the best. And yes, we need someone to kickstart it maybe. But tell me who? Who is the idealist that thinks they can win on a prayer and get to the top and not be corrupted somehow along the lines?

Having said that; I think President Bush is the least corrupt (if any) we have seen in years (at least 8 years)


Quote:
--Speaking about politics is not the same as religion. Honestly, tell me....do you write this nonesense simply to get a rise out of me? It used to work, but now I'm not even smiling. oh, wait....I am smiling. Nevermind
Then I guess people are just as passionate about religion as they are politics. And for some, religion mentions politics and warns of fanatics.

Nonsense lol! Coming from you I should feel bad
oh, me smilie too---> see

XOXOXO
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Old 07-22-2002, 10:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

That's the exact wording found in the Constitution.

Voluntary prayer at a presidential inauguration is an act of the government respecting a religion. The President, all of those in attendance, all of those watching at home on the television are being forced to combine their politics with one religious doctrine. You can't edit out what you hear during a political rally. It's all one continuous event, in which the government is pushing it's religious beliefs on all those who wish to take a part in their government. This is outlawed in the Constitution.
Officials praying at a presidential inauguration is *not* an act of the government respecting an *establishment* of religion. Respecting an establishment of religion goes way beyond a government official expressing a religious opinion at a government event.

Quote:

Would anyone reading this post being outraged if the President said a prayer to Allah, Buddha, or any other non-Christain representation of God? You don't need to answer, because I know a lot of you WOULD be PISSED. You'd get all up-in-arms about how that's not right for the President of a Christain Nation to say those words! You see, that's the point every non-religious person is making.
No.

If Congress wanted to replace 'God' with 'Danospano' in the Pledge of Allegiance, I would not file a lawsuit complaining that it was unconstitutional. I think it would be rather silly for Congress to do such a thing, and I would never recite the Pledge in that form, and I'd have serious reservations about reelecting to office anyone who voted for such a bill, but I don't think it would be unconstitutional.

Quote:

Those of us who don't necessary believe in a God are as passionate about our beliefs as all the bible-humping morons that caused so much pain and grief in this country.
Right, but atheists and agnostics are completely pure of heart and innocent of any wrongdoing throughout our nation's history...
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Old 07-22-2002, 11:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
As I see it, America *should* be run like a professional organization. Professional organizations are, for all practical purposes, completely non-religious. That is not to say that the members of the company aren't religious, but they keep it to themselves. I certainly do wish government would actually live up to the professionalism it repeatly says it wants to be.

Melon
There are plenty of professional organizations where persons of influence or leadership within their organization feel free to express their religious opinions (a good number of NFL franchises come to mind).

If another person's status becomes contingent upon his or her religious beliefs, then it becomes a huge problem, but being a "professional" doesn't mean that one's religious beliefs must be completely hidden.
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Old 07-23-2002, 01:08 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

That's the exact wording found in the Constitution.

Voluntary prayer at a presidential inauguration is an act of the government respecting a religion.
Two things:

Most obviously, a voluntary prayer at a presidential inauguration is NOT an act of Congress, much less a law of Congress.

More importantly, you mention the prayer as an act "respecting a religion," and I agree. The problem is, it is NOT an act respecting "an establishment of religion." In other words, it doesn't set up an official church analogous to the Church of England.

So, um, your argument kinda falls apart - althought I DO appreciate your response.

Quote:
The President, all of those in attendance, all of those watching at home on the television are being forced to combine their politics with one religious doctrine. You can't edit out what you hear during a political rally. It's all one continuous event, in which the government is pushing it's religious beliefs on all those who wish to take a part in their government. This is outlawed in the Constitution.
The Declaration of Indepedence mentions God some four times ("endowed by our Creator," etc.) Does the Constitution prohibit the President from reciting the document that established this country?

The Constitution ITSELF mentions "the Year of Our Lord" and implies God through mentioning the "blessings of Liberty." Is reciting the Constitution ITSELF unconstitutional?

I think not.

Quote:
Would anyone reading this post being outraged if the President said a prayer to Allah, Buddha, or any other non-Christain representation of God? You don't need to answer, because I know a lot of you WOULD be PISSED. You'd get all up-in-arms about how that's not right for the President of a Christain Nation to say those words! You see, that's the point every non-religious person is making.
If an openly devout Muslim won the election, I would see no problem with him publically expressing his faith.

And if I might be personally uncomfortable with the idea, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Quote:
Those of us who don't necessary believe in a God are as passionate about our beliefs as all the bible-humping morons that caused so much pain and grief in this country.
I've noticed that the God-fearers here are probably more considerate of the atheists than the athiests are of us "bible-humping morons." But WE are the ones causing all the pain and grief.

(Imagine if one of us called an athiest a "commie pinko." Imagine the reaction from the moderators.)

I further wonder: are ALL of us believers bible-humping morons?

Quote:
Keep religion to yourself. The same goes for sexual fetishes, gun collections, singing bass fishes by the name of Billy, and John Tesh records.
And those things, I suppose, are also constitutionally prohibited?

RIIIIIGHT.
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Old 07-23-2002, 01:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
bible-humping morons
By the way, SURELY you don't mean "bible-humping."

Surely you mean "Bible-thumping" (thump, with a "t"). If you didn't, the insult is more offensive than I first thought.
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Old 07-23-2002, 08:48 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


I think if you look around you
as a whole, these bible-humping morons don't quite cause the grief as the average white-seperatists or militia-wackos that oppose and urge others to take up arms against the best system in the world.
No, these "Bible-humping morons" (although I'm sure that "Bible-thumping morons" was what was intended) *never* cause any trouble. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have never made comments that politically liberal Americans were responsible for 9/11. Their ilk have never spread homophobia, misogyny, and ignorance.

They cause a lot of "grief" for people like me who are Christian and politically liberal. When I identify myself as Christian, plenty of people react negatively because they automatically assume that I am a "Christian" in the way of the "Christians" that saturate the popular media: intolerant, narrow-minded, old-fashioned, and quick to judge. While I know I am far from perfect, I try to be as open-minded and tolerant as possible. I support the right of people to live out whatever religious philosophy they find most appealing (unless it involves, say, the ritual sacrifice of kittens), but it causes me a lot of "grief" to not be able to simply say I am "Christian." And some of the "Christian" pundits out there have indeed done millions of Christian Americans a great disservice by painting a picture of Christianity as smug, self-satisfied, and intolerant.
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Old 07-23-2002, 12:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
No, these "Bible-humping morons" (although I'm sure that "Bible-thumping morons" was what was intended) *never* cause any trouble. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have never made comments that politically liberal Americans were responsible for 9/11. Their ilk have never spread homophobia, misogyny, and ignorance.

They cause a lot of "grief" for people like me who are Christian and politically liberal. When I identify myself as Christian, plenty of people react negatively because they automatically assume that I am a "Christian" in the way of the "Christians" that saturate the popular media: intolerant, narrow-minded, old-fashioned, and quick to judge. While I know I am far from perfect, I try to be as open-minded and tolerant as possible. I support the right of people to live out whatever religious philosophy they find most appealing (unless it involves, say, the ritual sacrifice of kittens), but it causes me a lot of "grief" to not be able to simply say I am "Christian." And some of the "Christian" pundits out there have indeed done millions of Christian Americans a great disservice by painting a picture of Christianity as smug, self-satisfied, and intolerant.
I think most Christians will agree with you that people like Jerry Falwell is doing more harm than good to our faith.

Thing is, it appears that Danospano was calling ALL Christians "bible-humping morons," that he was using the term as derogatory against ALL Christians.

THAT isn't productive at all.
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Old 07-23-2002, 06:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba


I think most Christians will agree with you that people like Jerry Falwell is doing more harm than good to our faith.

Thing is, it appears that Danospano was calling ALL Christians "bible-humping morons," that he was using the term as derogatory against ALL Christians.

THAT isn't productive at all.
Right, people like Melon and Danospano aren't out to differentiate between fanatical Christians and moderate Christians. Their goal is to attack all Christians (whether they admit to that or not) and lump you together with Falwell and his ilk. They'll never be the ones to point out how important churches have been in the development of decent, moral, and law-abiding people in this country. Can you imagine them pointing out that 75% of the community service done in this country is done by religious groups? Definitely not. It doesn't agree with their agenda.
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Old 07-23-2002, 07:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by garibaldo


Right, people like Melon and Danospano aren't out to differentiate between fanatical Christians and moderate Christians. Their goal is to attack all Christians (whether they admit to that or not) and lump you together with Falwell and his ilk. They'll never be the ones to point out how important churches have been in the development of decent, moral, and law-abiding people in this country. Can you imagine them pointing out that 75% of the community service done in this country is done by religious groups? Definitely not. It doesn't agree with their agenda.
You dumb f***. How many times and fashions do I need to tell you to never refer to me again?

You don't know a shitting thing about me. I am actually a very devout Christian who (yes) goes to church every Sunday. I perfectly fucking know the differences between Christians. I tend to get a bit peeved when all I hear are from conservative Christians and fanatics. Of course, you may perfectly well be a "moderate," but by your own words, you are just as fanatical right as it gets here.

Did you know, Mr. Know it All, that it was Christianity that pushed for separation of church and state? It was the pre-fundamentalist Baptist Church that pushed Jefferson for it. But I see. It's all about "you." Well, I think that there should be school prayer. Each public school should be required to say the "Hail Mary" before each class. The Ten Commandments posted should be the Catholic version, which is different than the Protestant version. You may think that your religion is somehow implicitly superior, but you know what? It is my constitutional right to completely disagree with you, and it is also my constitutional right to not have your religion shoved in my face, regardless of the majority. It is also your constitutional right to not have my religion shoved in your face.

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Old 07-23-2002, 07:24 PM   #34
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garibaldo;

I would appreciate more cordiality, and less pot shots that are just going to result in provoking people as your last comment has done.

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Old 07-23-2002, 07:57 PM   #35
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Let me correct myself: I did intend to say "bible-thumping morons" but is there really much of a difference? LOL.

Okay, just so we all know: I was also raised Baptist, which may been the reason I'm so passionately independent at the present time. That's a whole other topic, so I'll stick with the subject. My mother is a non-church going Christian as is my sister, grandmothers, grandfather, cousins, etc. My father is the non-religious one. I suppose I was blessed to grow up with two contrasting faiths in one household. It made me stronger and helped me figure out the true faith. Faith in one's self.

I have a question. Anyone can answer it. Here it is.....

Why SHOULD we have religious prayer within the schools, government, etc? It seems like everyone assumes we argue why it SHOULDN'T, but the question is never phrased in the opposite form. Please tell me why we need to verbally 'praise the lord (God)" outside of our own homes or churches?
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Old 07-23-2002, 08:04 PM   #36
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You want me not to generalize about you, but you have no problems generalizing about me!? You're just a f****** hypocrite. I don't believe Christ is the son of God and I'm not a Christian at ALL, so how can you call me a right-wing Christian? I believe that you pretend to be a "devout Catholic" so you can criticize the church without criticism of your intentions. If you look at your previous posts, you attack the Catholic Church on multiple occassions, so it seems ridiculous that you are even a part of this church.

Melon:

"I do not necessarily want the Catholic Church to change by mere popular capitulation, necessarily, and I agree with much of the basics. It's all that aggregious and selective abuse of its tradition, the lies and purposeful deception about its past, and, now, its encouragement of secular discrimination against same-sex couples, which, for some reason, the Church does not believe can co-exist with the traditional family--which is ludicrous I want the Catholic Church to change because it finally admits it has been wrong in some instances, and wishes to rectify it.

I'm only disappointed that, with all the spectacle of Jubilee 2000 and the encouragement of repentance for past sins, the Church didn't make a full confession, keeping it's self-righteous high road as usual. I don't have time right now, but I'll list quite a few of it's sins when I get back, and many of them won't be pretty. I'm willing to forgive these sins, but it needs to confess them first."

Melon:
"I'm still incredibly angry at the Pope, and any lasting respect that I did have for him has evaporated completely."

"I was fifteen when I think I became atheist, and it's only ironic that it happened out of my sophomore year religion class. Basically, too much rationalism was thrown at me, coupled with my weak understanding of why I believed things. I was used to being told what to believe, and I didn't have the resources to find out why. I reconciled to agnosticism when I was 16 until 18. Then came the internet, and I was finally able to get all the information I had clamored for for years, and, honestly, I'm mostly at peace as a result. Perhaps it is my personality, but I'm never contented with just accepting what people tell me."

"I could go on and on about the various anecdotes about hierarchical hypocrisy, because I know about them. Most of the Catholic clergy is probably gay, and this has been the case for well over 1200 years. Out of jealousy, I think, the stoic movement arose, which was anti-emotional, anti-sex, anti-woman, anti-gay, etc. (which is also the father of most of Catholic tradition). There were female priests for the first 500 years of the Church, but were banned because they thought female priests were "pagan" (the Pope, conveniently, is silent about this, because he knows this). Priests could marry for the first 1100 years of the Church, but the stoics did away with that too. You only need to look at the Eastern Orthodox Church, which split in 1054, with one of the contentious points being that the Western Church was demanding priest celibacy. Orthodox priests can still marry, and I don't think there are worries about them neglecting their duties."

"One day, I'd love to hang their dirty laundry out to dry... "

I could on and on about your continual criticism of the church. Why don't you start listing all of the great things about the church and Christianity that you've mentioned on this board. I'll hold my breath. You're in NO WAY a devout Catholic\Christian. You're here (in your own words) to "hang their dirty laundry" under the guise of a "thoughtful Christian". That's what I believe.
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Old 07-23-2002, 08:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
Let me correct myself: I did intend to say "bible-thumping morons" but is there really much of a difference? LOL.

Okay, just so we all know: I was also raised Baptist, which may been the reason I'm so passionately independent at the present time. That's a whole other topic, so I'll stick with the subject. My mother is a non-church going Christian as is my sister, grandmothers, grandfather, cousins, etc. My father is the non-religious one. I suppose I was blessed to grow up with two contrasting faiths in one household. It made me stronger and helped me figure out the true faith. Faith in one's self.

I have a question. Anyone can answer it. Here it is.....

Why SHOULD we have religious prayer within the schools, government, etc? It seems like everyone assumes we argue why it SHOULDN'T, but the question is never phrased in the opposite form. Please tell me why we need to verbally 'praise the lord (God)" outside of our own homes or churches?
Glad to see you meant "Bible-thumping," though I still think that if you must call Christians a Bible-thumping moron, you should probably be clear that you are referring to a VERY select group. The best case would be to not be so derisive of anyone else's religious beliefs.

That said, I believe I know why the discussion isn't centered around "why we need to verbally 'praise the lord'." The argument arose not out of Congress's efforts to change the "under God" clause of the Pledge, but rather a court deciding that the clause is simply unconstitutional.

A Congressional bill would generate the argument, "What are the benefits, what are the costs, and are the costs worth it?"

The court decision focuses on (and SHOULD focus on) a single question: "Is the clause forbidden in the Constitution?"

Hence, the current form of the argument.

But in response to your question, off the top of my head, I can think of three benefits of public (i.e., governmental) acknowledgement of God:

1) In a country with a GREAT deal of personal freedom, self-restraint is absolutely necessary. Responsibility without freedom is slavery; more important to this discussion, freedom without responsibility brings chaos.

A country as free as ours requires good citizens. Historically, religion does more good than harm in creating a moral people.

(Note, however, that if good citizenry were the primary reason to promote religion, religion would cease to accomplish that goal. If a religion focuses on God, everything else follows. If it focuses on anything else, it loses everything.)


2) If we are to assert that our freedoms are self-evident and unalieable, we must appeal to something beyond the physical universe. I honestly do not believe that we can use the natural world to somehow prove we have rights - much less rights that are evident on their own (self-evident) and that cannot be taken away (unalienable).

We must appeal to our Creator, or some literally supernatural absolute, to rest our freedoms on a firm foundation.


3) I believe God exists. If He does, He would likely be pleased in a government that is unafraid to acknowledge Him - AND willing to not infringe on its citizens' right to disagree.
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Old 07-23-2002, 09:38 PM   #38
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garibaldo, you've already been warned before to stay away from melon!

Once again you've attacked/provoked members of the board for no reason.

Last warning.

And melon, watch your use of the f word when referring to others on the board.
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Old 07-23-2002, 10:56 PM   #39
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About the whole bible-thumping moron thing.

First of all, I bet nobody here is expecting me to say what I am about to say so I suggest you sit down and dont drink while reading this soyour monitor doesnt get soaked.

Second of all, calling bible-thimpers morons is just...wrong (to me). I think that it's great that people are so passionate about their religion. Hey, if you are going to believe in something why not go all out? It's better than people who claim to be Christian (example) and havent even read the bible yet claim to be religious(etc). I realise that not everyone is like this, I'm just making a point and if you don't agree with me then you don't call me a moron. Because I think disagree with everybody (for the most part) on here and you don't see me calling them morons.

Also, I don't agree with religion in schools, etc, but I think the reason prayer and stuff is in schools (etc), is because in all honesty America was founded on a Christian belief system. When the country started, everyone was Christian, so they said prayers (etc) in schools (etc). And since people know that America was founded on Christian beliefs then it should still be that way. To me that implys America being a Christian society and in a way it is. Most of the laws came from religion. Everyone thought killing was wrong so they made a law against it. Why did they think killing was wrong? Most likely because the Bible said it was. There werent many murders back then as there are now so it would have been rare for a person to believe murder was wrong for a reason other than religion.
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Old 07-24-2002, 01:06 AM   #40
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Sicy, I was not attacking Melon "for no reason". I was attacking him based on his reply in this thread and his responses in similar threads. I think it was less an attack than a legitimate criticism of his agenda. I think Melon has tried to provoke conservative members of this board dozens of times with several threads (I'd be glad to post a history and analysis of those threads here). Can we really say that he wasn't trying to get a response out of the predictably conservative members (I don't mean that in a bad way)? I think not. Has he made sweeping generalizations about conservatives to provoke us? He most definitely has. If I had just called him a jerk to begin with, I could see your point.
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