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Old 06-09-2004, 07:48 AM   #1
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Land without nation to nation without land.

This is the situation in Palestine since 1948
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Old 06-09-2004, 08:58 AM   #2
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With all the Arab nations to choose from, why do they need the former Arab land that is now Israel? Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia...choose one.

Or is it the fact that, just as much as Arabs hate Israel, they also hate each other? Iraq doesn't exactly look like a happy family.

Yeesh...I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm just trying to spark some discussion here.

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Old 06-09-2004, 09:40 AM   #3
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Originally posted by melon
With all the Arab nations to choose from, why do they need the former Arab land that is now Israel? Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia...choose one.
Well, I really think that the "lets transfer 3 million Palestinians to other Arab states" is just a little bit impractical and irrelevant.
The same goes for the unrecognizing of Israel by most Arab states. What do they want? Seeing approximately 6 million people (number of Jews living in Israel – not at all a reference to the holocaust) scattered around the world?

The really important thing is what are we going to do now? Forget all the wishful thinking.
Most agree that at the end of the day (…and just when will that day comes?) the solution will include evacuation of the all the settlements in Gaza strip, most of the settlements in the west bank, a compromise in Jerusalem, a compensation to the Palestinians refugees and probably they will be denied from the 'right of return'.

None of both sides will be fully stratified with this, but peace agreements are about compromise.
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:50 AM   #4
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That's right, peace treaties are all about compromise. The Israelis won't get everything they want; the Arabs won't get everything they want, but God willing, everyone will get peace.
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Old 06-09-2004, 01:32 PM   #5
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Was there a nation of Palestine before 1948? Was there ever a Palestine nation?
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Old 06-09-2004, 04:05 PM   #6
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Was there a nation of Palestine before 1948? Was there ever a Palestine nation?
Part of the problem is that fact that the borders in the Middle East were drawn by Europeans when the Ottoman Empire fell apart. The Empire was grabbed by the European powers. Originally the land called Turkey was supposed to be divided between the Italians, the Greeks, the Armenians, the Kurds, and a bit of the land was to go to the Turks. But then Ataturk grabbed most of what is now Turkey after the Turks had had enough of an empire and wanted a nation-state. (The only part he didn't take was the land that now contains Antioch. That was ceded to Turkey in 1939 the year after Ataturk's death). I don't know the exact sequence of events. But to an Arab, his tribe is really more important than a nation-state. Thus, the terrorist active in Iraq but born in Jordan feels closer to his fellow tribesmen in Iraq than he does to anyone in Jordan.
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:45 PM   #7
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Israel/Palestine was Ottoman land from 1517 until the end of the Ottoman empire in 1918. The problem of various nations or groups of people and whether they can form an "Independent State" starts in 1918. Certainly, in such a unique situation any group would have the right to form their own independent state on land they were living on or privately owned. Christians, Muslims and Jews all had a right to form an independent State in Israel Palestine after 1918. Initially the Jews were the only movement to really form an independent state in the Israel/Palestine area because the Arabs in the area were interested in one large independent state all across the Middle East. The Arabs did not want to allow Jews or any other group living in the area to form an independent State.

Over the next 30 years, independent Arab States were form and the move to form and Independent Palestinian State was well under way. Fighting occured among the groups in the region and the British finally started to leave and decided to let the United Nations resolve the dispute.

The United Nations solution was to split Israel/Palestine equally between Arabs and Jews. The Jews accepted this plan and the Arabs totally rejected it. When Israel declared its independence, the next day it was invaded by 5 different Arab countries. Israel beat the Arabs back and has spent nearly 60 years defending its right to exist.

Arab aggression against Israel has created the Palestinian problem. Had the Arabs agreed to the United Nations plan in 1948, all the wars in this area potentially could have been prevented and a independent Palestinian State would have been in existence now for 56 years along side Israel with equal land holdings.

Now because of Arab aggression against Israel, the Palestinians will eventually receive less than half of what they would have had, had they agreed to the United Nations plan in 1948.

The Palestinians were offered 95% of the land they wanted in 2000 and they rejected the plan and started the intifada movement that has murdered thousands of innocent people.

The Palestinians and Arabs must learn that an independent Palestinian state will never be achieved through terrorism and war. Israel is a democracy and is there for suceptible to "Non-Violent Action". Israel cannot be defeated on the battlefield and all the attempts to have only made the situation worse for Palestinians. The past 56 years of violence by Arabs and Palestinians has only reduced the land any conceviable Palestinian State will get uponn independence as well as reducing the probability that there will be a Palestinian State. In this situation, non-violent action is the only option Palestinians have in achieving and independent State. The more Palestinians move to non-violent action, the faster they will get an independent State.
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Old 06-09-2004, 08:21 PM   #8
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Excellent post Sting

Besides the land belonged to the Jews way before. A lot of people have lost their land throughout history, you get over it, you move on. It is sad for the people involved, but sticking around blowing stuff up solves nothing.
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Old 06-10-2004, 05:44 AM   #9
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Originally posted by verte76


Part of the problem is that fact that the borders in the Middle East were drawn by Europeans when the Ottoman Empire fell apart.
Those borders drawn up after WW1, and the Treaty of Versailles, have caused nothing but trouble, and more wars, including WWII. Look what happened in Europe. Lumping a bunch of countries that didn't get along into one and calling it Yugoslavia was one of the worst decisions ever, causing problems right up into recent times. What were they thinking
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Old 06-10-2004, 07:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
Excellent post Sting

Besides the land belonged to the Jews way before. A lot of people have lost their land throughout history, you get over it, you move on. It is sad for the people involved, but sticking around blowing stuff up solves nothing.
Although throughout history, that (or the equivelant for the times) was how the land was gained.
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Old 06-10-2004, 10:44 AM   #11
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Not to mention the fact the palestinians only numbered around 400 thousand when Israel was created and were told by all the other arab countries to leave because they would invade rapidly, they failed in this goal on 3 seperate occasions and the "palestinian refugees" simply set up shop and began breeding like rabits.

Here is a question that can really irk some people. What is the country in the middle east where arab women have the freedom to vote and are afforded all of the basic human rights? the answer is of course Israel.
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Old 06-13-2004, 12:10 AM   #12
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I am not authorized to paste links but to know the truth please visit the following sites
duke org/

alhewar com/articlesandopinions

whatreallyhappened com

pmwatch.org/pmw/mediocrity/editcalls.asp

whatreallyhappened.com/Children_files/frame.htm
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Old 06-13-2004, 01:24 AM   #13
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Here is some facts since truth is rarely objective

1) Israel is the ONLY liberal democracy in the entire middle east.

2) The IDF is arguably the most disciplined armed forces in the world and it operates effectively in an efficient and effective manner in a dangerous situation.

3) Ariel Sharon is not a war criminal.

4) Sheik Yassin, Abdel Aziz
Rantisi etc. are terrorists, they were directly responsible for the murder of innocent civilians and were legitimate targets.

5) Mohammed al-Dura was killed by Palestinians.

6) Those tunnels beneath refugee camps are used for smuggling weapons, bombs and expertise, not just food and water.

7) Around 19% of Israeli citizens are Arabs who are afforded the same rights and representation as any Israeli citizen.

Some simple questions.

Are Jews allowed to live freely in any arab country without fear of violence or persecution?

Who gives more to the Palestinian people, Arafat and the PA or Israel?

Do 6 million Jews secretly rule over the 1.1 billion Muslims in the world?

--------------------
http://www.palestinefacts.org/ - Hey its a proper site

http://pmw.org.il/ - the real palestinian media watch.

http://www.accessmiddleeast.org/

http://www.iwpr.net/home_index_new.html
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Old 06-13-2004, 04:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
2) The IDF is arguably the most disciplined armed forces in the world and it operates effectively in an efficient and effective manner in a dangerous situation.

3) Ariel Sharon is not a war criminal.

4) Sheik Yassin, Abdel Aziz
Rantisi etc. are terrorists, they were directly responsible for the murder of innocent civilians and were legitimate targets.
I would say these are not facts (with point 3 and 4 you are stating being debatable from which point of view you are talking).

The Mohammed al-Dura case is also one big mystery, so you cannot claim as fact that Palestinians killed him.

C ya!

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Old 06-13-2004, 07:41 AM   #15
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Again visit the sites a/m
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Old 06-13-2004, 08:21 AM   #16
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Hello salim2, I'm not going to argue facts right now but just ask – what do you think should happen now? What is the next step in this conflict?

BTW, just out of curiosity – where do you live?
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Old 06-13-2004, 08:21 AM   #17
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I did and frankly I did not like what I saw, those sites all have the usual crap on them showing innocent children sitting on top of rubble that just happened to be covering a tunnel complex, how somehow the Israeli state is responsible for the terrorists attacking its civilians, there are links to revisionst historians and other such sites on those links, I just do not think that one can get a proper context of the current situation from sites that hold the opinion that terrorism and violence against innocent civilians is justified.

I am refering here to
pmwatch.org
and
http://alhewar.com/

http://whatreallyhappened.com/ seems to be the only legitimate site posted, it actually uses decent sources and presents them in a proper context as well as clearly stating its agenda as a header.

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest." - Thomas Friedman
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Old 06-15-2004, 12:43 AM   #18
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You can’t sell this crap to me; we know the truth and your Jewish propaganda can be declared somewhere else. David duke and Roger Garaudy are the most accurate info resource, Read more below.

Israel is killing easily philistine’s children everyday but it can’t defeat them and THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE. This is the fact no body want t o admits.

Quran:

[ 5: 33. On account of this, WE prescribed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killed a person - unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land - it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. And our Messengers came to them with clear Signs, Yet even after that, many of them commit excesses in the land ]


USA and West are using all of their might’s to oppress Arab people in particular and Muslims in general, it started since the beginning of last century when they supported the creation of Israel against Arab will?


Terrorism is defined by the American government as the threat or the use of violence to advance a political cause by individuals or groups, whether acting for or in opposition to established governmental authority, when such actions are intended to shock, stun, or intimidate a target group wider than the immediate victims. Actually such a general definition will include all wars of liberation from the American War of Independence to the French Revolution. The worst aspect and perhaps the most common feature of terrorism is the unleashing of violence against innocent civilians.

The State of Israel is the most recent example of the establishment of a state by terrorism. It was established by Jewish terrorist groups, the most infamous of which was the Stern Gang.



Roger Garaudy publishes new book on Zionism

The Founding Myths of Israeli Politics by Roger Garaudy

The Israeli-Zionist Lobby in the United States by Roger Garaudy

The Israeli-Zionist Lobby in France by Roger Garaudy

Israel, Zionism, and the Racial Double Standard
Copyright 2001 By Paul Grubach

Ancient Jerusalem By James Baikie D.D.F.R.A.S.ž

Walks in and Around Jeruslem By J.E.Hanauer.ž

The Story of Jerusalem By Colonel Sir C.M Watson.ž
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Old 06-15-2004, 12:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by salim2
USA and West are using all of their might’s to oppress Arab people in particular and Muslims in general, it started since the beginning of last century when they supported the creation of Israel against Arab will?
Oh yes, we are definitely oppressing the Arab people here in the USA.

The Arab will....more like the Arab won't, as in won't accept Israel ever.
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Old 06-15-2004, 01:52 AM   #20
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Israel seems to be pretty bad at killing Palestinian children considering the rate their own parents manage to do it by brainwashing them into becoming bombers.

The facts are as follows, Israel was created as a homeland for the Jewish people however it is not exclusively Jewish. It was founded less than 30 years after all the other nations in the region and although violence brough about some pressure it was the Holocaust (a blood letting of incomprehensible proportion of the Jewish people that people like David Duke and Roger Garaudy fail to comprehend) that gave the movement widespread support among the international community. Israel has more right to exist than any Arab country in the region, it is more cohesive and stable and is a true nation-state unlike the loose federations of bedoin tribes that seem to constitute every other arab country.

Israel is a proper liberal democracy and as such the actions of the state have accountability and oversight by the people of the nation.

The surrounding 22 Arab countries are 640 times larger than Israel, how exactly is it that one country of 6.5 million inhabitants that occupies such a minute space and contains such a small population is deemed such a threat to Arab interests when it has not conquested any important muslim lands? If Israel really wanted power it would invade the Gulf Oil fields and not the stragegicaly significant but resource lacking Gaza, West Bank, Siani etc.

In regards to the glorious freedom fighters that are persecuted by the evil westerners and zionists please tell me, are they heroic?

Does a heroic and noble group of fighters ambush a car and open fire on it as it is driving along a road until it comes to a stop?

Are they still heroes when the go up to the car to find a pregnant woman bleending profusely in a car riddled with bullet holes, 4 little girls are there as well who are clinging to eachother in shock about what has just happened, blood covering the carpet of the car?

Is proceeding to murder a pregnant woman in cold blood heroic, point blank with an automatic weapon a heroic deed, would it warrant celebration for it, is there honour here? Now there is a car with one dead body and 4 little girls clinging to eachother in fear what is the heroic course of action, is taking that gun an turning it on innocent fucking children honourable, is that how freedom is won by honest and good freedom fighters, blowing little girls skulls apart close range?

Is there honour in such barbarity?

The fact is that palestinian terrorism in unadaulterated evil, I cannot use a less strong word, it the sum of a vile and barbarous culture of death that has been fostered by "religious men" and their foreign aplogists. Palestinians run their affairs in a way that breeds violence, it is an inevitability that such a machine of death will be stopped.

I know in my heart that there is no moral equivilancy here, the IDF is a trained millitary that performs its duty for its government. A government that has a duty to protect its citizens from harm. It does this by fighting the scourge of terrorism where it lies, there is no difference between an innocent person being killed in an IDF operation and one killed in a terrorist attack is that they are both victims of Palestinian terrorism. Hamas will murder anybody that gets in their way and it is because of this nobody will speak out against them. Terrorism does not bring justice to the Palestinians it brings only bloodshed.

For all the talk about being victims of the Jews, Americans and the West the Arab people only have themselves to blame. They should learn to work for peaceful resolution of problems and not murder innocents to force resolution. They should understand that the one thing that seperates America and Israel from them is that the people in a Liberal Democracy can speak their minds, they can spread new ideas and come up with real solutions but at the same time bem willing to fight to preserve those rights. Israel and America are not the problem, its the victim mentalit, when the Arabs can get onto their own feet and improve themselves from within their societies they will be better off and you will see a true and just peace.

Go ahead and call me a rascist zionist islamaphobe, I would wear that badge with pride rather than be complicit in the evil of terrorists. May peace be found when the will of good men conquers the evil of the weak.

This post is in memory of Tali Hatuel as well as her daughters Hila (11), Hadar, (9), Roni (7), Merav (2) may they rest in peace.

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