Kuwaitis call for boycott of Danish goods

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
verte76 said:
It's one thing to say "Islam is based on irrational premises" and another thing to draw a picture of Mohammed with a bomb on his head. One is based on philosophical beliefs, and the other is solely to insult Muslims.

Given the less than respectful depictions referencing other religions we've seen over the years, can you really say the sole intent of the cartoon was to insult Muslims?
 
verte76 said:
Folks, in case you don't know, all_i_want is a Muslim from Turkey. Keep that in mind when you read his posts.

A bit patronising, to be honest.:(
 
verte76 said:
Folks, in case you don't know, all_i_want is a Muslim from Turkey. Keep that in mind when you read his posts.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

- but that only makes his/her (? :reject: ) opinions even more interesting in this thread!
 
verte76 said:
Folks, in case you don't know, all_i_want is a Muslim from Turkey. Keep that in mind when you read his posts.

yeah, well, i wouldnt really call myself a muslim cause i dont really do anything a muslim is supposed to do and do other things instead. you know, i have never been to a prayer, yet i have eaten pork and drank lots and lots of alcohol. i am probably the worst muslim there is, but i do live in this culture so i have an understanding of it. one thing i am proud of in islam, though, is its respect of the other books, the new and the old testaments. the book, in itself, does regard both jesus and moses very highly. koran, in essence, was sent as an update to the previous books, and it is not in denial of them.

i am not a religious person and i dont believe i am supposed to live in ways prescribed hundreds of years ago, whether it is the christian way or muslim way.

it might be puzzling, my heresy and everything. i would tell you a whole lot more about the disconnect between the religious and secular Turks, but i dont want to derail the thread.

but i do think a lot of you would have more favorable views of islam if you actually took the time to learn about it, like verte did, instead of basing your opinions on its 'reflection' (the middle east in 20th century)
 
DrTeeth said:
28743SupportDenmarkSmall2EN.png


Hah, and who said martyrdom is an Islamic thing? :lol:

:wink:
 
all_i_want said:


it might be puzzling, my heresy and everything. i would tell you a whole lot more about the disconnect between the religious and secular Turks, but i dont want to derail the thread.


Perhaps you could start an "ask the...." thread.... Those are often very interesting and informative. You don't have to be the definitive expert, just have a differing perspective and a willingness to answer questions.
 
In Iraq, Islamic leaders urged worshippers to stage demonstrations from Baghdad to the southern city of Basra following weekly prayer services Friday.
Afghanistan and Indonesia condemned the drawings, and
Iran summoned the Austrian ambassador, whose country holds the EU presidency



well,

all you people who have been cheerleading this humiliation

must be on the side of evil-doers

you are putting our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq in more danger
 
DrTeeth said:
28743SupportDenmarkSmall2EN.png


Hah, and who said martyrdom is an Islamic thing? :lol:
Martyrdom is when a person is killed for their beliefs, the shahid that goes out to murder and take their own life in the process hardly deserves that title. I am just showing where I stand, just as I did during the orange revolution, just as I did during the cedar revolution.
 
Well one British Muslim group has decided to take a stand, these clowns are the heirs of the Al-Muhajiroun organisation.
Kill those who insult the Prophet Muhammad (saw)


The kuffar in their sustained crusade against Islam and Muslims have yet again displayed their hatred towards us this time by attacking the honour of our beloved Messenger Muhammad (saw). In September 2005 the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published 10 cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad (saw) which were later republished by a Norwegian paper Magazinet. Until now both governments have refused to denounce the drawings and to condemn the publication of them.

Denmark has a history of blasphemy against Islam, only in August did radio presenter Kaj Wilhelmsen say that all fanatical Muslims should be exterminated and the rest should be kicked out of Europe. Last year the queen of Denmark aired her disapproval of Islam and for those ‘whom religion is their entire life’. Prior to this the Danish government issued the right to dismiss a Muslim woman from working in a supermarket for wearing the hijab. Furthermore Denmark is an ally of the war in Iraq with 500 troops stationed in the South and 10 from Norway showing their approval and participation of the war.

Both governments claim that one of their underlying principles is the freedom of speech and that everyone is free to speak their mind and to voice their opinions openly. They claim that the publication of these cartoons is a mere expression of ones opinions falling within the framework of the law. This is the same freedom of expression that quite readily prevents the propagation of Islam and support of the mujahideen using it as and when it suits them.

This should come as no surprise to the Muslims because this is the exact and true nature of the kuffar that Allah (swt) has informed us of in the Quran. The kuffar will never have respect for our deen, they will never honour it and will always seek to ridicule and disparage it. At every opportunity they will try to attack and belittle it whilst concealing the greater hatred they have for it in their hearts. This is also evident throughout the history of Islam where the kuffar carried out similar acts to try and defame Islam. Allah (swt) tells us that; verily, the Kaafireen [disbelievers] are ever unto you your open enemies. [4:101]

At the time of the Messenger Muhammad (saw) there were individuals like these who dishonoured and insulted him upon whom the Islamic judgement was executed. Such people were not tolerated in the past and throughout the history of Islam were dealt with according to the Shariah. Ka’ab ibn Ashraf was assassinated by Muhammad ibn Maslamah for harming the Messenger Muhammad (saw) by his words, Abu Raafi’ was killed by Abu Ateeq as the Messenger ordered in the most evil of ways for swearing at the prophet, Khalid bin Sufyaan was killed by Abdullah bin Anees who cut off his head and brought it to the prophet for harming the Messenger Muhammad (saw) by his insults, Al-Asmaa bintu Marwaan was killed by Umayr bin Adi’ al-Khatmi, a blind man, for writing poetry against the prophet and insulting him in it, Al-Aswad al-Ansi was killed by Fairuz al-Daylami and his family for insulting the Messenger Muhammad (saw) and claiming to be a prophet himself. This is the judgement of Islam upon those who violate, dishonour and insult the Messenger Muhammad (saw).

Shortly after these incidents the people began to realise that insulting the Messenger of Allah (saw) was not something to be taken lightly and that by doing so would mean that you would be killed for it, a concept that many have seem to forgotten today.

The insulting of the Messenger Muhammad (saw) is something that the Muslims cannot and will not tolerate and the punishment in Islam for the one who does so is death. This is the sunnah of the prophet and the verdict of Islam upon such people, one that any Muslim is able execute. The response of the Muslims all over the world shows us the inability to deal with such people, the kuffar are attacking our Messenger and are allowed to get away with it whilst the Muslims have no power to do anything about it. The leaders of the Muslim world have no care for the deen of Islam as they are busy cementing their seats content with their power and wealth. Where are the Muhammad ibn Maslamah’s of our ummah who will defend the honour of our beloved Messenger and rise the banner of Tawheed high?

But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions). [9:12
link

Nice chaps, just a tiny bit psychopathic, they can get on alright with Christians if they have to but if you be an atheist or polytheist watch out.

Is this reaction the fault of the cartoonists for provoking it?
 
Last edited:
A_Wanderer said:
You still haven't answered the question directly, what course of action do you advocate deep?



Islam prohibits ALL images of Mohammed



so,

I advocate not printing humiliating cartoons in newspapers

that were created solely for the purpose of agitating Muslims.
 
A_Wanderer said:
Does that extend to censorship of said cartoons?


that is what I said


"I advocate not printing humiliating cartoons in newspapers-
that were created solely for the purpose of agitating Muslims."


originally posted by A_Wanderer


I reiterate that making a cartoon of Jesus ejaculating over Mary while being done over by Joseph would be a depiction of supremely bad taste - but I think that I could safely draw and distribute something like that without having to worry about personal safety.


if newspapers refused to print your cartoon

i would not consider it a loss of free speech
 
In the US billboards (along streets, highways, sides of buildings, etc.) are often privately owned, and it is generally perfectly permissible to feature religious messages, inflammatory political invective, etc. on them.

What if a certain party wished to rent a few billboards to feature the Jyllands-Posten cartoons (Free Speech--Pass It On!) for the patriotic edification of passers-by? Should such a public platform for these images be allowed by the government? If not, how is it different from a nationally widely read, e-accessible, privately owned daily (which is probably seen by more people than any one batch of billboards) running them? Would it be a spineless, simpering act of self-censorship in the face of Muslim wrath for a billboard owner to refuse the offer?
 
Have you actually seen all the cartoons in question? The Mohammed Cresent one is quite an endearing portrayal and the mischevous schoolboy too, how about the self portrait of the cartoonist with PR stunt splashed on the picture? The man is obviously an important historical figure why should we who do not follow the scripture abide by it's principles?

You are saying that speech must be judged on the basis of intent and limiting of it when there is ill-intent is justified. Free speech is indivisible, you cannot claim that there is free speech when offensive speech is banned. You also touched upon self-censorship, this is a problem as well because when the press is under pressure to supress depictions and stories that reflect poorly upon certain groups the truth is a casualty.

For somebody who supports free speech in protest against the Bush administration when it crushes liberties at home how can you oppose free speech when it is confronting the encroaching fist of censorship abroad? Are you being consistent in your views - I have defended Nazi hate speech, cartoons calling Colin Powell a "house ******", anti-semitism and the most insane of the anti-war protest banners (I will use it to illustrate the agenda and nature of groups, what people say is the best tool against them - but I don't say that they shouldnt have the right to say it), I am in full agreement with the ACLU on matters of free speech and I do not think that is a bad thing. I do not believe in anything divine in the world and I believe that individual human beings have on a genetic level a more or less equal inherent potential, I support the concepts of individual rights regardless of race or religious belief - I support the concept of true universal suffrage even after it leads to outcomes that are less than desireable.

Sacred beliefs are just ideas, ideas that human beings have constructed over the centuries. In my worldview there is absolutely no divine revelation, all the so-called prophets who experienced these and used them to their ends were power hungry, insane or both. Why should atheists have to abide by and respect the absurd lies that believers suspend their critical thinking to believe. You paint me with a big broad anti-Muslim bias as if it is my be all and end all cause to be - I disagree, I have read quite a few books on Islamic history, from Gibbon to Bernard Lewis, Ibn Warriq and a plethora of Muslim Brotherhood type groups and their websites. I fully accept that the Caliphate was the preeminant power of it's day and it was only later on that the western world was able to rise to dominance, I see the history not as a battle of faith but one of political and social conflict, of the spread of a religion not always by the sword and of a set of scriptural laws that function in the context of the society that they arose in (for instance not judging Aisha as the bride of a paedophile because 7th Century Arabia was not the same as the 21st Century globalised world, the millet system of the Ottoman Empire was functional, Dhimmitude too is restrictive but compared with religious freedoms in Europe at the time better in many respects). In context the expansion of Islam into Europe from the Battle of Tours which Creasy descroned as the dominance over the semitic races (19th Century parlance again) to the second siege of Vienna - these were not peaceful engagements, there was stipulation in the conduct of warfare - Jihad - not merely internal stuggle against vice but physical struggle; that has been played out all through history, with concepts that are today archaic and removed from what we consider humane but at the time quite justified. I do not hate the faith any more than I hate other religions - to which I certainly have a degree of antipathy I suspect that your ad hominem attack on my motives and consistent dodging of the question of mandated censorship are related (this speech is anti-Muslim, only Islamophobes would support it aides in making it seem that this expression isn't worthy, that it falls outside a new barrier of what constitutes free speech), I also think that logically if you support free expression against the Bush administration, against Christians but oppose it against Muslims, Sikhs and Jews then then you find a fallacy in your thinking.

There is absolutely no right not to be offended. People get offended by everything, I can accept that but we all deal with it, believer and unbeliever alike, I don't hold any religious views sacred - when one religious group gets the idea that legal protections are an entitlement I think that is dangerous and a good course of pushing the limits is warranted to defend those rights. In the words of William Shatner, "it sickens me" to give ideas, especially ones that run entirely contrary to my personal worldview immunity from criticism and mockery. To be under the threat of physical violence for just expressing an opinion and and depicting a figure of reverence who's followers have at times caused a bit of havok is sickening. To live in a society beholden to to fear where we cannot enjoy discourse in whatever we desire is illiberal and is not worth living in.

Once you start banning speech because it offends certain people you have forfeited free speech rights. Now the question of religion is simple, religion is ideas and ideology that deserves absolutely no protection. Nothing is sacred to us all and must not be granted that status under law. Race on the other hand gets into a bit more dificult territory, one cannot change their race, ethnicity as a mixture of race and religion (e.g. Sikh and Jew) are a margin. Islam and Christianity fail those tests though and such questions are irrelevent in this case.

The no-harm principle of liberty is logically sound and supports the right to free speech. I will support that liberty to the logical extreme, the point at which the speech itself incites violence (which this speech does not) and causes harm (which does not include offense to belief or ego).
 
Last edited:
yolland said:
In the US billboards (along streets, highways, sides of buildings, etc.) are often privately owned, and it is generally perfectly permissible to feature religious messages, inflammatory political invective, etc. on them.

What if a certain party wished to rent a few billboards to feature the Jyllands-Posten cartoons (Free Speech--Pass It On!) for the patriotic edification of passers-by? Should such a public platform for these images be allowed by the government? If not, how is it different from a nationally widely read, e-accessible, privately owned daily (which is probably seen by more people than any one batch of billboards) running them? Would it be a spineless, simpering act of self-censorship in the face of Muslim wrath for a billboard owner to refuse the offer?
It may well have been an act of spineless self-censorship for the owner of the French paper to fire the editor who run the pictures but it was his right to do so.

Owners of private property also have the right to put billboards up with a message or refuse to put them up.

Free speech is not a right to get a piece published by default, it is a right for a piece to be created and to not have government censorship barriers in place.
 
A_Wanderer said:
Free speech is not a right to get a piece published by default, it is a right for a piece to be created and to not have government censorship barriers in place.
Very nicely put.

Do you think there is any intrinsic tension between this lack of right to be published by default, and the pressure on media institutions to prove themselves beyond reproach when it comes to their courage in supporting "the struggle for free speech" (and fierceness of opposition to the oft-offended)?

I am thinking perhaps less of Jyllands-Posten here (though that too) than a rash of recent cases at American universities involving student-run papers who justified running strident Holocaust-revisionist or neo-Nazi opinion pieces with the explicit argument, "If we can't print this, then we can't print anything."

I am very much enjoying this discussion. (Though it would perhaps be good if I learned to enjoy going to bed at a decent hour, as well.)
 
Do you think there is any intrinsic tension between this lack of right to be published by default, and the pressure on media institutions to prove themselves beyond reproach when it comes to their courage in supporting "the struggle for free speech" (and fierceness of opposition to the oft-offended)?
I feel that mainstream media organisations are businesses and they will generally tow a line favourable to economic interests, it may also be fair to argue that there is a culture within certain journalistic circles (put by Autralian journo David Marr, journalists have to have a soft-left bias) that may lead to bias - bias can be beaten with strong editorial policy and scrutiny (The ABC News here is much better than our SBS or the BBC).

In this case I really feel that a lot of media outlets are not risking it and will not republish the cartoons - that is their prerogative. I think we can criticise that without demanding that they have to publish the cartoons. I also feel that when it comes to controversy Christianity has just been done to death, there is literally nothing within the barriers of the law that I could do that could elicit the same magnitude of response - this is a cultural thing I understand that, but if practitioners of Islam genuinely want to be part of the social fabric in Western Europe it requires abandoning absolutist superiority complexes and accepting that they will not be any more immune from criticism than other religions. Papers that do print the sort of material that is genuinely controversial (pictures of war crimes, evidence of government abuses and religious crimes) and do so without fear or favour (many papers printed the Abu Ghraib pictures after the war, how many showed Saddam era torture?).

Pushing the limits in terms of opposing the government of the day is a no brainer, that stuff is not going to generate much controversy. Attacking sacred cows of the loudest sections of the community however (Jesus, affirmative action, arts funding etc.) will generate a bit of heat - thats a good thing, it's healthy for a society to be able to do this. Mohammed and Islam on the other hand seem to be a bit haram even to secular journalists and newspapers, I really feel that this is not healthy for society as a whole - I think that this is taken to an extreme level in national boycotts and death threats, I understand it's being confrontational to put this stuff right out there but so was professing atheism in Europe a few centuries ago let alone the religious crimes perpetrated through the ages. It was only through this heat (partly generated by burning catholics :wink: ) that societies were able to reach a stage where criticism could be tolerated without murder (for the most part). Sacrificing this hard earned right of religious pluralism because other cultures lack this attribute is dangerous, ideologically I would put defence of my cherished belief in freedom of religion and secularism well above animosity towards any religion (hence why I find those who want to erradicate religion to be supremely wrong).
 
Last edited:
A_Wanderer said:
bias can be beaten with strong editorial policy and scrutiny (The ABC News here is much better than our SBS or the BBC).
:hmm: Could you elaborate a bit on what this bias looks like and how a strong editorial policy goes about "beating" it...so that I'm clear how this ties into the overall picture of what we're discussing?

: goes wearily back to grading student paper no. 46 on :happy: freedom of information in international law : If 40% of these papers were as articulate as 80% of the posts in this thread, I would be delighted. I am not. :angry:
 
Ensuring that use of language is consistent - not deliberately misquoting (for instance reports quoting an Israeli spokesperson saying "militants" when they actually said "terrorists"). Ensuring that there is a degree of objectivity - for instance not weeping as Yasser Arafat is flown out of the Palestinian Territories like a certain BBC reporter. We percieve the media with a set of prejudices, but when I say that ABC news preserves objectivity and neutrality well I do so knowing that many right wing commentators disagree with that and hate the public broadcaster.

If there are proscribed standards that are obeyed in a professional manner with independent oversight (for public broadcasters) then potential bias is kept in check. When a social or political agenda (such as social justice) is laced into pieces that are not opinion that causes problems.

Fox News is not objective, but then they aren't taxpayer funded.
 
Last edited:
Muslims attack Danish embassy building in Jakarta

JAKARTA, Feb 3 (Reuters) -- About 300 militant Indonesian Muslims went on a rampage inside the lobby of a Jakarta building housing the Danish embassy on Friday in protest over cartoons that Muslims say insult Islam and the Prophet Mohammad.

Shouting "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest), the white-clad protesters from the hardline Islamic Defender's Front (FPI) smashed lamps with bamboo sticks and threw chairs around in anger at cartoons originally published by a Danish daily.

They also threw rotten eggs and tomatoes at the Danish embassy symbol inside the lobby. The embassy is on the 25th floor of the building and protesters were unable to get past security in the lobby, a Reuters photographer said.

About 100 Indonesian policemen watched the FPI protesters as they made fiery speeches calling on the government of the world's most populous Muslim nation to sever diplomatic ties with Denmark and evict its ambassador.

They then tore the embassy's flag down from outside the building and lit it on fire on the pavement.

The protesters dispersed after an hour. There were no arrests.

Newspapers in France, Germany, Spain, Switzerland and Hungary have reprinted the caricatures this week, saying press freedom was more important than the protests and boycotts they have provoked. Many Arab commentators said the European defence rings hollow because, they said, European media protected Judaism and Israel from criticism.
 
Update 2:

Germany, France, Denmark, and Norway are evacuating their nationals from all operations in Gaza and the West Bank after repeated threats and demonstrations from militants saying they had 48 hours to apologize or "be in danger." On Thursday, a German teacher was kidnapped from his hotel by masked gunmen, but was rescued by Palestinian police an hour later. On the bright(?) side, Hamas officials have formally appealed for refraining from attacks on foreigners, and dispatched some of their own "security" forces to protect Palestinian Christian churches in case they should suffer reprisals by association.

The purportedly influential International Association of Muslim Scholars (I wonder about the translation's accuracy on that last word) has called for an "international day of anger" today over the cartoons.

Protests were planned in London. Statement from the Muslim Council of Britain:
Knowing full well the nature of these cartoons, that they were offensive, deeply offensive to millions of Muslims, these newspaper editors should have exercised better judgment.
Editors know that the Prophet is regarded with love and respect - to caricature him as a terrorist and describe him as daft and dumb, they know the deep sense of anger it will cause.

Instead, they have created a storm. This situation is ripe for exploitation by extremists. The extremists will say to vulnerable Muslims that Europe hates you, hates Islam and hates the Prophet.

There is already a lot of tension between the Muslim world and Europe due to the war in Iraq and the current threat against Iran. It all comes at a very difficult time.

We do not support violent protest nor flag burning. The best way to protest is by voicing your feelings to the embassies - the French and Danish - here.
On a similar note, Iraq's top Shiite cleric al-Sistani condemned the publication of the cartoons, but also condemned "misguided and oppressive" segments of the Muslim community and said their actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood."

The Afghan and Pakistani governments are also now climbing onto the official condemnations bandwagon. Protests, most of them peaceful, continued outside various European embassies in several Middle Eastern, Central Asian, and Southeast Asian countries.

Various French, German, Danish, Norwegian, Dutch, Italian, Swiss, Spanish, Bulgarian, and Hungarian papers have all now (re)printed the cartoons.

Jyllands-Posten chief editor: "They have won"
By SA
Feb 3, 2006


COPENHAGEN - A storm of protests and consumer boycotts in the Middle East against Denmark suggest that opponents of freedom of expression "have won", said the editor of a newspaper that published controversial caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed, in a report published on Wednesday.

Jyllands-Posten chief editor Carsten Juste said: "They have won. That is the sad fact. I guess that during the next generation no one in Denmark will draw the Prophet Mohammed."

Asked if he regretted last September's publication that had angered many Muslims, Juste said: "If we had known it would have led to boycotts and that Danish lives would be threatened, as we have seen, then the answer is no. That would not have been responsible. The costs were simply too high."

Carrefour, the French retailer, said it had removed Danish products from shelves in its Middle East operations.
:huh: So much for fraternite.

And Rasmussen is going to meet today with the Muslim ambassadors he initially rebuffed back in October, after all (it's not clear yet which countries' ambassadors will attend, but it will be a long list). He should have done it the first time. He may not be accountable for what Danish newspapers print, but he is accountable for his people's standing and safety internationally.

I hope this doesn't come across as flip, but as an American who's traveled in Pakistan with my head down at times, it is the oddest feeling to watch footage of an angry Pakistani mob burning effigies and chanting Death to Denmark.
 
Last edited:
1stepcloser said:
This is getting ridiculous. A world without religeon would be a much better place.
No. A world without history, identity, diversity, and culture would be a much better place.

:slant:
 
Back
Top Bottom