Justice for Jessica........

[Diemen]

I look at it this way. We "judge" people, based on what we can "observe." Since we are not supernatural, we can only observe the concrete--actions and spoken/written words.

We know, however, that we have internal thoughts, which cannot be observed by the outside world, and, as such, cannot be "judged" by mankind. God, by definition, though, is able to see us both internally and externally, so the true judgment of intolerable people like those on Death Row can only be reserved by God. If many Christians are to state that we are judged solely by our faith and not by our works, then we must accept that even the most despicable of people can have such faith and enter heaven.

From a theological POV, this makes the death penalty an act of incredible hatred, as someone stuck in prison without possibility of parole is always with "the possibility" of finding his or her faith until the day they die. By prematurely ending these lives, we might be cutting short the chances for these individuals to get that faith; and, as such, we are "playing God." As for whether we, ourselves, are going to be judged for killing these people, potentially depriving them the chance to "find God"? I guess we'll find out someday.

I love it when you get theological on us.

 

[toscano]

Christians don't insist on killing, murdering pedophiles do.

And yet george bush has murdered who knows how many countless thousands of children in Iraq because..........

Chrisrians insist on executing all facets of the law which include letting a sentenced murdering pedophile be executed, which you have a problem with.

I missed that part of Bible Study growing up. Are there not as many, if not more "Christian" denominations who are opposed to the DP than are FOR it ? (Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, etc.) Are they "less christian" than you ?

 

[BVS]

Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.

You mean he wasn't a white male Republican who believed in tax cuts for the rich, screwing the poor, pre-emptive strikes, second class citizens, or establishing a theocracy? Damn.

 

[A_Wanderer]

That's usually the path they take.

And I think a person robbing a 7-11 vs. a person molester, essentailly a person robbing a child of his virtue is a far worse crime.

A robber can make restitution by giving the money back; robbing a child of his or her innocence- one cannot restore.

Child molesters should be locked up 3-4 times longer than the way the current penal system is set up.

I always find it quite telling in this thread that that secularists thinkers have a disproportionate amount of symphathy for child molesters and oppose the death penalty.

They blur the lines between right and wrong, one can only call them on their ill placed logic, and point out to them the majority of Americans opposed theie pathetic line of thinking.


dbs

Yes, that pesky logic is what seperates believers from infidels. Nobody here has defended paedophiles, the concept of religiously justified excecution is based on the premise that the perpetrator will suffer in an afterlife. This would be an afterlife that in all probability does not exist, thus rendering the "ultimate punishment" a mere release, they aren't going to hell for what they have done and killing them doesn't hold a candle to locking them away for decades in terms of vengence.

Justifying why a paedophile rapist needs to be punished is plain to see in the harm that they have done to another human being. But your dichotomy between faith and unbelief is predicated on the idea that in the absence of belief people will do whatever they want to other people because theres no reason not to.

 

[A_Wanderer]

They were arrested for it because they broke the law, regardless of their Church affliation or attendence.

I feel like I'm dialoguing with a 12 year old.

You're back on Ignore.

dbs

They were arrested because the secular system of law enforcement was able to go after rapists that were protected by their religious organisation. No childs behind left.

 

[toscano]

Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.

Well, may have been caucasian, but then again that doesn't mean he was white.

 

[Vincent Vega]

They were arrested because the secular system of law enforcement was able to go after rapists that were protected by their religious organisation. No childs behind left.

Right, I remember the letter telling all priests, bishops, etc. not to report any priest, bishop, etc. they know has molested a child, coming from the Vatican.

Now, if they are no Christians, who then is it?

 

[deep]

Re: Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

Well, may have been caucasian, but then again that doesn't mean he was white.

I know which one I see when I pray.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Re: Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

Well, may have been caucasian, but then again that doesn't mean he was white.

That's how anthropologists have stated he might have looked like, going from where he was born, and where his parents came from.

OK, deep beat me to it.

 

[deep]

No thanks

we don't want New Coke

old Coke is number one, why change to a new product?

 

[toscano]

Re: Re: Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

That's how anthropologists have stated he might have looked like, going from where he was born, and where his parents came from.

OK, deep beat me to it.

OK, hands up everyone who thinks caucasian = white ?

 

[indra]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

OK, hands up everyone who thinks caucasian = white ?

I bet that most of the people who voted in that poll do equate caucasian with white.

 

[JCOSTER]

Pro-dp people...what are your opinions of the list of countries that have gov't sanctioned executions that I posted earlier? What do you think this says about the U.S. as a developed "super-power" of a nation? How do you feel that the U.S. grouped with a number of countries which we recognize have corrupt politics and governance?

What I'm getting at here, is I think the DP is archaic, and has no purpose in policy. It seems as though many other developed nations agree. Perhaps there was a time for it, I don't know, I didn't live in that era. I can only speak from my experience in modern times. But now, there is no need. Really.

This, environmental laws, and many others, seem to be areas where the rest of the world "gets it" and the U.S. falls far behind. I think it is a damn shame.

This isn't about religion. This is about PROGRESS, and bettering the U.S. society and the world.

And for the record, NOBODY here that is anti-death penalty is sympathetic towards criminals of any kind. That seems to be yet another misconception of pro-dp people.

And JC, I know you stated earlier that our minds might change if it were our child, and I don't think that is a fair assessment. If my parents were raped and killed, I'd be pissed off as well. But I would not want to be responsible for the death of their killer. Isn't there enough death already? It won't bring my parents back. It won't make me feel closure of any kind. I personally wish Cho hadn't killed himself. I know that is different, because he took his own life. But I think it is still a related example of a killer who will never learn his lesson. Who will never be brought to justice. I miss my student dearly. But I wish he were alive so he can atone for what he did, and see the pain that he caused, and live with that burden for the rest of his life. Executing criminals who have killed somebody is letting them get away with it, because there is nothing to be learned.



And I'm having a hard time seeing that people are still pro-DP after seeing Kenneth's Foster's case. I mean, come the fuck on. It is obviously a flawed system.

Mia, I'm just saying that after I had my children, my views and perspectives on certain issues had changed. Its a totally different when you think you have it all figured and then you have kids and you have to think of them as well.

In the Foster case I don't believe that man should get the dp.

 

[JCOSTER]

unico, clearly you are soft on child molesters.

No she's not.

 

[JCOSTER]

Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

According to polling data, most Christians in this country believed that African Americans were an inferior race and didn't deserve equality.

According to polling data, most Christians in this country believed that women shouldn't vote, shouldn't compete with men in the marketplace, and didn't deserve equality.

According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.

I do believe opposite in what you've stated above, everyone in this world is equal. And I am a christian. If a brother or sister is in need you help them. etc.....

 

[redhotswami]

Mia, I'm just saying that after I had my children, my views and perspectives on certain issues had changed. Its a totally different when you think you have it all figured and then you have kids and you have to think of them as well.

I see what you are saying, since they are your own off-spring. However, as someone who will probably not have children, I don't think that makes my perspective on this any less valid or inexperienced. A psychopath took the life of my own student, as well as many others. Whenever somebody else takes the life of someone you know, care for, and/or love, that person has created a hole in your life. Nothing will ever fill that void. Not even the killer's execution. I'd feel the same if my parents faced the same feat, or my brother, or my friends, or my relatives, or anybody else in my life. I assume a certain amount of responsibility in all of my relationships.

 

[Irvine511]

i'll go out on a limb and say that if someone did this to my child, i'd probably want to kill them. and maybe i would try to kill them. and maybe i would be successful.

but that doesn't mean that i support the death penalty.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

OK, hands up everyone who thinks caucasian = white ?

Sorry, wasn't intending to say it was wrong that he was caucasian. Just show some proof that he rather was black than white. The quote was a bit unlucky.

 

[yolland]

I see what you are saying, since they are your own off-spring. However, as someone who will probably not have children, I don't think that makes my perspective on this any less valid or inexperienced. A psychopath took the life of my own student, as well as many others. Whenever somebody else takes the life of someone you know, care for, and/or love, that person has created a hole in your life. Nothing will ever fill that void. Not even the killer's execution. I'd feel the same if my parents faced the same feat, or my brother, or my friends, or my relatives, or anybody else in my life. I assume a certain amount of responsibility in all of my relationships.

To be fair, as a parent (who is also against the death penalty), I do agree with JCOSTER that the thought of certain things happening to one's children simply is more wrenching than the thought of them happening to one's parents, siblings, spouse, students, best friend or whatever. It's not a question of "my offspring, mine mine mine" or loving them more than anyone else; it's the unique and lasting and often terrifying sense of total accountability that comes with having a child (or should, anyway). The awful guilt of not having been there to protect your child in their worst moment, and the way that would intertwine with the feelings of rage, grief, shock, and emptiness you'd feel over the brutal death of anyone important to you, would quite literally be the worst emotional torment I can possibly imagine. So I do understand what it means to say that having children affects your view of these things--there's a whole new dimension to your awareness of human vulnerability that wasn't there before.

However, from a systemic perspective--which is really the only one it makes sense to analyze capital punishment from--I oppose the DP because the reality is that mistakes can be, have been and continue to be made, whether that's due to bad evidence, bad legal conduct, racism or bad laws, and this is simply not an acceptable arena to make mistakes with. On a personal level I feel absolutely no concern for what happens to John Couey himself, so long as it involves permanent exclusion from society, though I do find the idea of strangers rejoicing in executions repulsive.

I also agree that both the sentencing and rehabilitation of child molesters and the sentencing of child murderers in this country are often woefully inadequate, but unfortunately that's a separate issue and probably not one we can achieve much of a substantive discussion on in here, as it doesn't really pertain to broad general principles that can be analyzed and debated but rather the patchwork quilt of relevant laws and legal procedures across the country and all the loopholes it has in it.




And all this blather about whether true Christians molest children and what race Jesus belonged to, etc. is absolutely bonkers and has no place in this thread.

 

[Vincent Vega]

i'll go out on a limb and say that if someone did this to my child, i'd probably want to kill them. and maybe i would try to kill them. and maybe i would be successful.

but that doesn't mean that i support the death penalty.

Who wouldn't want that?

 

[yolland]

I think there are some deeply committed religious and ethical pacifists out there who sincerely wouldn't want it. I admire people like that for their consistency, but I'm not one of them.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I'm sure feelings would be there. However, in the end it would destroy even more than already got destroyed, so it wouldn't be a wise choice.
I would love to have more than one kid, and a wife, plus friends and greater family. So I would just add unnecessary harm to what already has harmed all.
And I sure hope I will never have to find out.

 

[U2isthebest]

I'm Christian and anti-DP so stop making all of Christianity follow you.

 

[JCOSTER]

On a personal level I feel absolutely no concern for what happens to John Couey himself, so long as it involves permanent exclusion from society, though I do find the idea of strangers rejoicing in executions repulsive.

FYI...I don't rejoice in executions. I do believe if found guilty with no uncertain doubt in a murder that person should be given the DP.

Even though I am a christian I don't go around telling people what they should believe.

I do however, believe that if everyone followed the 10 commandments which is basic human common sense, the issue of the death penalty and John Couey wouldn't be a discussion.

 

[phillyfan26]

No she's not.

She was being sarcastic.

 

[phillyfan26]

I also agree that both the sentencing and rehabilitation of child molesters and the sentencing of child murderers in this country are often woefully inadequate, but unfortunately that's a separate issue and probably not one we can achieve much of a substantive discussion on in here, as it doesn't really pertain to broad general principles that can be analyzed and debated but rather the patchwork quilt of relevant laws and legal procedures across the country and all the loopholes it has in it.

And all this blather about whether true Christians molest children and what race Jesus belonged to, etc. is absolutely bonkers and has no place in this thread.

Completely agree with this.

 

[Diemen]

I do however, believe that if everyone followed the 10 commandments which is basic human common sense, the issue of the death penalty and John Couey wouldn't be a discussion.

True, because there would be no murder (thou shall not kill) and no death penalty (you guessed it, thou shall not kill). There is no qualifier to that commandment. It doesn't say "thou shall not kill, unless the person did something truly awful," so at least through the lens of the 10 Commandments, the death penalty is wrong.

But all that is besides the point, because that's not the world we live in. The 10 commandments are not law.

 

[redhotswami]

can anyone explain to me why the u.s. needs the death penalty when most of the rest of the world doesn't anymore?

 

[MadelynIris]

state by state... We're a big country with a lot of variations in beliefs... I still think that is a pretty good way to legislate this kind of stuff. Different parts of the country will have different ways of handling this stuff.

 

[phillyfan26]

I don't see why it works. There's no legitimate argument for the death penalty. I haven't seen one.