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Old 08-27-2007, 01:24 PM   #381
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Call for references.

Out of curiousity can somebody please post the data that suggest that "most Americans think Jesus was a 'WASPY' looking fellow".

I do not think Jesus' skin color is mentioned in any canon of scripture.

What is mentioned is that his dispostion and appearance was one of meekness and not too good looking in physical attributes in Isaiah.

References please, let's dis spell this allegation of a supposed poll.

dbs
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:27 PM   #382
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So of the 3 pictures posted
which ones look like the ones you have seen in religious magazines and paintings on walls in homes you have seen?
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:31 PM   #383
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Diamond:

Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
I'd like to ask you why there should be death penalties in a system that isn't based on absolute certainty, rather guilt merely beyond a reasonable doubt.
This is a very important point that you need to address.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:05 PM   #384
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Diamond:



This is a very important point that you need to address.
#26-

There are more safe guards these days for the DP.

I see the DP as for the greater good in a flawed society.

Is it totally fool proof and occassionally an innocent will be killed?
Yes.
Who's fault will that be?

The prosecutor's and that is who should then be prosecuted. If he puts an innocent person to death than I say go after him.

Time restraints limit my participation in this thread, but here are a a article that coincides with my thinking.:

Opponents of the Death Penalty Have Blood on their Hands
By Dennis Prager
FrontPageMagazine.com | 11/29/2005

Those of us who believe in the death penalty for some murders are told by opponents of the death penalty that if the state executes an innocent man, we have blood on our hands.

They are right. I, for one, readily acknowledge that as a proponent of the death penalty, my advocacy could result in the killing of an innocent person.

I have never, however, encountered any opponents of the death penalty who acknowledge that they have the blood of innocent men and women on their hands.

Yet they certainly do. Whereas the shedding of innocent blood that proponents of capital punishment are responsible for is thus far, thankfully, only theoretical, the shedding of innocent blood for which opponents of capital punishment are responsible is not theoretical at all. Thanks to their opposition to the death penalty, innocent men and women have been murdered by killers who would otherwise have been put to death.

Opponents of capital punishment give us names of innocents who would have been killed by the state had their convictions stood and they been actually executed, and a few executed convicts whom they believe might have been innocent. But proponents can name men and women who really were -- not might have been -- murdered by convicted murderers while in prison. The murdered include prison guards, fellow inmates, and innocent men and women outside of prison.

In 1974, Clarence Ray Allen ordered a 17-year-old young woman, Mary Sue Kitts, murdered because she knew of Allen's involvement in a Fresno, California, store burglary.

After his 1977 trial and conviction, Allen was sentenced to life without parole.

According to San Francisco Chronicle columnist Debra Saunders, "In Folsom State Prison, Allen cooked up a scheme to kill the witnesses who testified against him so that he could appeal his conviction and then be freed because any witnesses were dead -- or scared into silence." As a result, three more innocent people were murdered -- Bryon Schletewitz, 27, Josephine Rocha, 17, and Douglas White, 18.

This time, a jury sentenced Allen to death, the only death sentence ever handed down by a Glenn County (California) jury. That was in 1982.

For 23 years, opponents of the death penalty have played with the legal system -- not to mention played with the lives of the murdered individuals' loved ones -- to keep Allen alive.

Had Clarence Allen been executed for the 1974 murder of Mary Sue Kitts, three innocent people under the age of 30 would not have been killed. But because moral clarity among anti-death penalty activists is as rare as their self-righteousness is ubiquitous, finding an abolitionist who will acknowledge moral responsibility for innocents murdered by convicted murderers is an exercise in futility.

Perhaps the most infamous case of a death penalty opponent directly causing the murder of an innocent is that of novelist Norman Mailer. In 1981, Mailer utilized his influence to obtain parole for a bank robber and murderer named Jack Abbott on the grounds that Abbott was a talented writer. Six weeks after being paroled, Abbott murdered Richard Adan, a 22-year-old newlywed, aspiring actor and playwright who was waiting tables at his father's restaurant.

Mailer's reaction? "Culture is worth a little risk," he told the press. "I'm willing to gamble with a portion of society to save this man's talent."

That in a nutshell is the attitude of the abolitionists. They are "willing to gamble with a portion of society" -- such as the lives of additional innocent victims -- in order to save the life of every murderer.

Abolitionists are certain that they are morally superior to the rest of us. In their view, we who recoil at the thought that every murderer be allowed to keep his life are moral inferiors, barbarians essentially. But just as pacifists' views ensure that far more innocents will be killed, so do abolitionists' views ensure that more innocents will die.

There may be moral reasons to oppose taking the life of any murderer (though I cannot think of one), but saving the lives of innocents cannot be regarded as one of them.

Nevertheless, abolitionists will be happy to learn that Amnesty International has taken up the cause of ensuring that Clarence Ray Allen be spared execution. That is what the international community now regards as fighting for human rights
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:08 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
#26-

There are more safe guards these days for the DP.

I see the DP as for the greater good in a flawed society.

Is it totally fool proof and occassionally an innocent will be killed?
Yes.
Who's fault will that be?

The prosecutor's and that is who should then be prosecuted. If he puts an innocent person to death than I say go after him.

Time restraints limit my participation in this thread, but here are a a link that coincides with my thinking.:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={A77DF01D-3064-4D6D-A4F6-56EA1E3FE345}
But it's not the job of the legal system to find him guilty completely! The legal system is based on the idea that guilt is found beyond a reasonable doubt! Why is it the fault of the prosecutor if he presents evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you think that every person who's ever been wrongly found guilty was so because of deceitful prosecutors?
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:09 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


But it's not the job of the legal system to find him guilty completely! The legal system is based on the idea that guilt is found beyond a reasonable doubt! Why is it the fault of the prosecutor if he presents evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you think that every person who's ever been wrongly found guilty was so because of deceitful prosecutors?
Do you think Couey is completely guilty?

dbs
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:10 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Do you think Couey is completely guilty?

dbs
You didn't answer his question.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:11 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Do you think Couey is completely guilty?

dbs
1. That doesn't answer my question.

2. What does my opinion have to do with the processes of the legal system? As I said to JCOSTER, there's no way to measure how certain we are that someone's guilty.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:11 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Call for references.

Out of curiousity can somebody please post the data that suggest that "most Americans think Jesus was a 'WASPY' looking fellow".

I do not think Jesus' skin color is mentioned in any canon of scripture.

What is mentioned is that his dispostion and appearance was one of meekness and not too good looking in physical attributes in Isaiah.

References please, let's dis spell this allegation of a supposed poll.

dbs
One needs not look too far past any church in america to see the evidence. Just look at the common depictions in religious art in the churches...
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:13 PM   #390
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


But it's not the job of the legal system to find him guilty completely! The legal system is based on the idea that guilt is found beyond a reasonable doubt! Why is it the fault of the prosecutor if he presents evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you think that every person who's ever been wrongly found guilty was so because of deceitful prosecutors?
Could be a myraid of reasons:
-lazy prosecutor
-racist prosecutor
-inept prosecutor.

I still say it is for the greater good that the DP remains.

And I'm not getting baited back into this thread.

I respect your opinion to disagree with mine.

good day-

dbs
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:18 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Could be a myraid of reasons:
-lazy prosecutor
-racist prosecutor
-inept prosecutor.
I'm not ready to take a life if someone in the system is lazy, racist, or inept.

Death is absolute.

Any human system is not.

For this fact alone the DP is an abomination.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:21 PM   #392
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Not in the Couey case.

good day-

dbs
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:21 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Could be a myraid of reasons:
-lazy prosecutor
-racist prosecutor
-inept prosecutor.
Or a perfectly good prosecutor who finds evidence that points to a person, believes it's that person. Prosecutes that person, presents that evidence, others draw the same conclusion. Evidence not found is found later, that person is freed. Unless he's been executed. Then, he cannot be freed. Had nothing to do with the prosecutor.

This situation happens. It will continue to happen. And the DP is a problem for this reason.

We'll never be certain.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:23 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Not in the Couey case.

good day-

dbs
There are no absolutes. You will never know 100%.

You may know 99.9%, but never 100% unless you saw them in the act.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:24 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


There are no absolutes. You will never know 100%.

You may know 99.9%, but never 100% unless you saw them in the act.
And even then, all you can do is tell other people, and none of them will know 100%, because how certain can they be based on hearing someone say this?

Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That's our legal system. It's the most important phrase in this discussion.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:31 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


There are no absolutes. You will never know 100%.

You may know 99.9%, but never 100% unless you saw them in the act.
This is not the case to argue "reasonable doubt" or even .01 % doubt.



And if this one case was ALL we considered
than support for the DP would be very high.

This is an emotional case, and there really is no doubt.


You may want to go back to the Texas case.
where the guy was driving the car and the shooter was already executed.

Now, that case will sway more people.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:41 PM   #397
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What exactly would be that "greater good"?
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:45 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


This is not the case to argue "reasonable doubt" or even .01 % doubt.



And if this one case was ALL we considered
than support for the DP would be very high.

This is an emotional case, and there really is no doubt.


You may want to go back to the Texas case.
where the guy was driving the car and the shooter was already executed.

Now, that case will sway more people.
I tried bringing it up in here. I tried pointing out how flawed, biased, and inconsistent the system is, and how something as permanent in the DP should not be in something so questionable.



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Old 08-27-2007, 02:46 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
What exactly would be that "greater good"?
Giving someone the sense that someone fried for the crime.

Revenge. Pure and simple.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:48 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico
I tried bringing it up in here. I tried pointing out how flawed, biased, and inconsistent the system is, and how something as permanent in the DP should not be in something so questionable.

Yeah, but it's for the greater good.
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