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Old 08-24-2007, 04:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
U2 Democrat see my post above and being a minister's daughter how would you interpret Mark 9:42?

dbs
As a Christian, diamond, how do you then interpret Exodus 31:15, Exodus 21:17, and Deuteronomy 21:18-21?
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:14 PM   #22
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The NT supercedes the OT.

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Old 08-24-2007, 04:16 PM   #23
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You mean like Matthew 5:38-42, when violence is denounced?
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:17 PM   #24
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whatever, i'd actually rather not get into a biblical debate. i don't see how Jessica nor her family is getting any "justice".
he has done them irreparrible harm. that is for certain. but his blood will never wash away their tears.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:19 PM   #25
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Matthew 5:38-42
"38 You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40 and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; 41 and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you."

Where do that say that Child Killers are to be spared the death penalty?
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:20 PM   #26
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But what about all the talk of forgiveness and letting God do the judging?

Turn the other cheek, not 7 but 77 times, etc.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:21 PM   #27
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So forgive people, but there are exceptions? That was Jesus' message?
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:22 PM   #28
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it's ultra-emotional cases like these that demonstrate exactly why the death penalty has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with vengence.

i understand the need for vengence. there's a part of me that would love to see this man buried alive as well. or that Susan Smith woman to be put in a car and thrown into a lake and to drown like her children did. these impluses are totally understandable especially when we're dealing with horrific murders involving children.

but that doesn't mean it's good policy, or good for society, or really good for anyone. we misunderstand the death penalty. it's a penalty. it's a punishment meted out in the way that 5 years or 10 years or 6 months or 30 years is meted out as a punishment. punishments for criminals aren't designed to make anyone feel better, they are designed to serve a specific purpose. the reason why death is a flawed punishment has been gone over so many times -- it's finality, it's racist application, the irrationality of showing that killing is wrong by killing somone -- that it doesn't bear much repeating.

i think cases like these understandably make us cry out for vengence, and that is not what the justice system is for. it's vengence that leads to a breakdown in the rule of law. it's vengence that fules sectarian killings in Iraq, or Bosnia, or Sudan. vengence, while profoundly human and understandable, isn't an emotion that should be pursued by the justice system.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


Actually no BVS....I posted this as an outlet for my feelings. I just had to log on to this board and free my mind (no pun intended) from the outrage and sorrow I felt.

I know that you're against the death penalty and I didn't start this thread to start any arguments for or against - I just wanted to write down my thoughts - which is what this board is for.

Of course I welcome a discussion if anyone would care to comment.
Ok, I understand. But actually this board is for discussion, not just writing down thoughts, so I was a little confused as to the intent.

But it looks like it's generated discussion...

I was just curious.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:26 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat
But what about all the talk of forgiveness and letting God do the judging?

Turn the other cheek, not 7 but 77 times, etc.
You're correct that we are to forgive all men from:
Hilter
Stalin
Jeffery Dahmer
Gacy
and this man in Florida, even if they re repentent or not.

However it doesn't say that because we forgive him that we stay the execution of his earthly punishment, which so happens to be the death penalty.

And so sooner he meets his Maker the better off he'll be.

As far as judging others, we are to exercise righteous judgement as a society and God's children.
You cannot mis interpret "Thou Shall Not Judge" to burying your head in the sand.

dbs
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCOSTER
So be it, but if it where my child....words cannot explain the punishment I would want them to have.
I can certainly understand wanting the person who hurts or kills your child to suffer the most horrible death possible. But would you be willing to do what you want done yourself? If you could, what does that make you? How could you do what you say you'd like done to this guy and live with yourself? Even if he's the scum of the earth, could you really inflict this type of torture on him and be able to live with yourself? Would you be able to explain it away to yourself by saying it was justified because he was bad?

Or would you require someone else to do it for you? If this is the option, how do you justify making someone else become a barbarian? And what do you do with that person if he/she (or you, if you do it yourself) if he/she starts to get a rush out of it? Doesn't that possibility make that person unfit to be in the general population?

Opposition to the death penalty or to eye-for-an-eye type punishment is not as much because of any sympathy for the condemned as it is the realisation that it causes a detrimental coarsening of society. That's not good for anyone.


* edit -- well damn. I just read Irvine's post and he said it much better than I did.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:27 PM   #32
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I'm not exactly sure where I stand on the death penalty, but I have to admit - I feel those who rape and kill children should be put to death. Mainly because it would stop them from hurting kids again.
I know killing John Couey won't bring back Jessica Lunsford, and I know the Bible says "he who is without sin cast the first stone". But it is disgusting what these people do, and the worst thing is: you can't stop them! There's no cure for pedophilia! I even heard that physical castration doesn't even help. The way I see it, its not about revenge, but saving the world from these psychos.

I know a good idea would be to lock them up and through away the key, but the way the justice system works, they may be out once they reach the age of 65 so the prison won't have to care of them in old age.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Most would agree with you here, which is no suprise.
Most Americans and fair minded people would see your post as a strange assesment.

First off, an execution is not a "justified killing of someone".

It is execution of a guilty person who snuffed out a young innocent child.

Other than another death occurs, there are no similaraties.

To suggest otherwise is twisted.





dbs


On second thought, I should have said some things in common
instead of a lot of things


this is truly a despicable person, a child killer is the worst
but society is not served by so-called lawful killing of people
and most civilized governments have rejected killing of even the most despicable


and honest to God

I don't give a damn about this Bible verse or that verse

one can always find one that will support their view

and we do not live under Shia Law
and God help us if we ever do.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:29 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Where do that say that Child Killers are to be spared the death penalty?
Where does it say the DP should even exist?
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
everything to do with vengence.
From my view this has nothing to due with vegence, I'm not a vengeful person.

dbs
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:32 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it's ultra-emotional cases like these that demonstrate exactly why the death penalty has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with vengence.

i understand the need for vengence. there's a part of me that would love to see this man buried alive as well. or that Susan Smith woman to be put in a car and thrown into a lake and to drown like her children did. these impluses are totally understandable especially when we're dealing with horrific murders involving children.

but that doesn't mean it's good policy, or good for society, or really good for anyone. we misunderstand the death penalty. it's a penalty. it's a punishment meted out in the way that 5 years or 10 years or 6 months or 30 years is meted out as a punishment. punishments for criminals aren't designed to make anyone feel better, they are designed to serve a specific purpose. the reason why death is a flawed punishment has been gone over so many times -- it's finality, it's racist application, the irrationality of showing that killing is wrong by killing somone -- that it doesn't bear much repeating.

i think cases like these understandably make us cry out for vengence, and that is not what the justice system is for. it's vengence that leads to a breakdown in the rule of law. it's vengence that fules sectarian killings in Iraq, or Bosnia, or Sudan. vengence, while profoundly human and understandable, isn't an emotion that should be pursued by the justice system.
exactly! so he's killed. did he get what he deserved? no i don't think so. there was nothing to "get". i agree he needs to be punished. but i can't think of a better punishment than atonement itself.

i guess the death penalty was enacted to protect the innocent...but to me the purpose of punishment - whether it is murders, curfew breakers, or whoever, is to teach a lesson, right? what lesson is to be learned?

i'd be very very angry at this man if Jessica were my child. but i don't think it would comfort me at all knowing i (as the defendant) was responsible for his death by execution.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:33 PM   #37
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What harm in keeping them in prison for life? They can no longer commit these crimes again.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:35 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
What harm in keeping them in prison for life? They can no longer commit these crimes again.
zero harm, period
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Where does it say the DP should even exist?
Read Matt 18:6.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

What would you interpret "mill stone and cast into the sea and drown" to mean exactly?


Please do not tell me that you interpret this as poetry as you've done in the past with other verses, for if you do this justifies leaving you on permenant ignore status.

dbs
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:36 PM   #40
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according to amnesty international, these are the current governments that permit the death penalty:

Quote:
Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

seriously. just look at some of the countries we are grouped with.
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