Justice for Jessica........

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
JCoster, I appreciate your sticking with this thread for so long now. Just wanted to say that, incase you're feeling the 'banging head against brickwall' syndrome and that no one's listening. I hope nothing is taken too personally from this thread. I've had major disagreements with some people I really appreciate on here, and I'm glad at the end of the day it doesn't really change much. They might think I am more of an opinionated pain in the arse more than before, but it's never stopped anyone from just moving on!
 
Irvine511 said:
my oppostion to the death penalty has nothing to do with the implication that a crime has to be *really* bad to warrant the death penalty and everything to do with the fact that the death penalty has nothing to do with justice, the rule of law, peace, order, good government, etc.

I concur.
 
JCOSTER said:


As much as I can't imagine being a parent of a murdered child I can't imagine being a parent of the one who had done the deed either.

I've been related to both. One relative was killed by a jealous lover, and one relative killed the man that raped his wife. I was very close to both... and still to this day would I ever support the DP... NEVER
 
I stand by my earlier claim that the DP is flawed, archaic, and unnecessary. However, I wonder why those who do support the DP disagree with those three reasons.

It is a damn shame what happened to Jessica. And not that I'm in support of the DP, but I'm wondering why James Ford Seale (White, former KKK) did not get the DP after kidnapping, and beating 2 19 year old (Black) men, then ductaping their mouths and limbs while still alive and throwing them into the Mississippi River. Instead he was sentenced to life in prison.

Actually, I know why he didn't get the DP. I'm just wondering what the pro-DP people have to say about this, since they believe that execution is a deservable punishment after taking the lives of other people.

I'm wondering what it is going to take to get people to see that the DP serves no justice. It only breeds racism, violence, and poverty. I wonder how many people get the DP for killing black people. How many minorities are murdered every day in high-crime areas. I don't see the same outrage happening over the loss of their lives.
 
Surely only a few murderers ever get the DP...If the pro-DP people follow their principles of a life for a life wouldn't that mean there should be increased numbers of people receiving the DP?
 
LJT said:
Surely only a few murderers ever get the DP...If the pro-DP people follow their principles of a life for a life wouldn't that mean there should be increased numbers of people receiving the DP?

That's what I'm wondering. I mean, according to my understanding of that justification, then yes, but I'm not sure because of my different stance.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


I've been related to both. One relative was killed by a jealous lover, and one relative killed the man that raped his wife. I was very close to both... and still to this day would I ever support the DP... NEVER


FYI....My very close older cousin who was like an older brother to me was gunned down in the street when he was 25 through mistaken identity. The shot was meant for a bunch of guys hanging around in front of another house a few blocks over. My cousin left behind his infant daughter and the shooter was never caught.

That same cousin had just broken up a week before from dating a girl named Stacey Mosckowitz who was murdered by the Son of Sam.

So I've been related to it to it as well and to this day still believe in the DP.
 
Angela Harlem said:
JCoster, I appreciate your sticking with this thread for so long now. Just wanted to say that, incase you're feeling the 'banging head against brickwall' syndrome and that no one's listening. I hope nothing is taken too personally from this thread. I've had major disagreements with some people I really appreciate on here, and I'm glad at the end of the day it doesn't really change much. They might think I am more of an opinionated pain in the arse more than before, but it's never stopped anyone from just moving on!


Thanks. :wink:
 
unico said:


That's what I'm wondering. I mean, according to my understanding of that justification, then yes, but I'm not sure because of my different stance.

It would certainly lead to a cull of the prison population if the life for a life principle was put in place across the board...though of course in Texas it's not even life for a life, it's DP for being in the same car as a person who carried out a heat of the moment murder:happy:

What a wonderful world we live in...

I know it is a bit disingenuous to compare the State's use of the DP with Saudia Arabia, North Korea and a host of other "not the most wonderful in the world" states...as the likes of Japan also has the DP...but the list for states without the DP certainly makes for better reading.

I wonder what justification the Japanese have for the DP? Or maybe it happens only rarely it doesn't cause such a fuss when it does?
 
LJT said:


It would certainly lead to a cull of the prison population if the life for a life principle was put in place across the board...though of course in Texas it's not even life for a life, it's DP for being in the same car as a person who carried out a heat of the moment murder:happy:

What a wonderful world we live in...

I know it is a bit disingenuous to compare the State's use of the DP with Saudia Arabia, North Korea and a host of other "not the most wonderful in the world" states...as the likes of Japan also has the DP...but the list for states without the DP certainly makes for better reading.

I wonder what justification the Japanese have for the DP? Or maybe it happens only rarely it doesn't cause such a fuss when it does?

I was surprised Japan was on the list too, especially considering the really low murder rate they have. I wonder if it hasn't been used in years or something. It just seems incongruent with the population I think.
 
unico said:
I stand by my earlier claim that the DP is flawed, archaic, and unnecessary. However, I wonder why those who do support the DP disagree with those three reasons.

It is a damn shame what happened to Jessica. And not that I'm in support of the DP, but I'm wondering why James Ford Seale (White, former KKK) did not get the DP after kidnapping, and beating 2 19 year old (Black) men, then ductaping their mouths and limbs while still alive and throwing them into the Mississippi River. Instead he was sentenced to life in prison.

Actually, I know why he didn't get the DP. I'm just wondering what the pro-DP people have to say about this, since they believe that execution is a deservable punishment after taking the lives of other people.

I'm wondering what it is going to take to get people to see that the DP serves no justice. It only breeds racism, violence, and poverty. I wonder how many people get the DP for killing black people. How many minorities are murdered every day in high-crime areas. I don't see the same outrage happening over the loss of their lives.

Unico-

I would favor taking race out of the equation.
Should Jim Seale received the death penalty? Absolutely.

Is there a disproprtionate amount of non whites being executed compared to whites? I'm not sure. If so that that isn't right.

I think though the reason is more due to economics.

A rich person usually never gets the death penalty, whether they are white black or pink.

I understand I'm of the minority opinon here-in support of the death penalty.

This thread is about the little girl who was snuffed out by a pedophile, and justice for her.

Segues into ppl's understanding of Christianty have dominated this thread with each person's different interpretation of God's word.
Profanity has been hurled about, names have been called, and contention has filled this thread. I think that is wrong.

Lastly for some that think I'm some heartless, unforgiving judgemental person it may behoove you to know that part time I work as Prison Minister for the State of Arizona Dept Of Corrections, free of charge.

For the last 6 months I've been counseling an African American man who is serving a long sentence for molestation of a minor.
I visit with and exchange letters often. The prison is about 1 hr from my home. This person is looking to change his life, and feels deeply sorrowful for his actions that wound him up in prison.


I don't look at him as an inferior human being, I look at him as somebody with a troubled soul who was raised in wrong circumstances, and although he came from a lousy home, he's still accountable for his actions. I'm there for him and to help him assist him to right the wrongs of his past, and never repeat his mistakes again.


Anyway guys I'm busy with work, kids church and my prison ministry activities.

I think the hostility in this thread does Jessica a dis service, and for that reason I'm going to bow out.

God Bless,

dbs
 
diamond said:


Unico-

I would favor taking race out of the equation.
Should Jim Seale received the death penalty? Absolutely.

Is there a disproprtionate amount of non whites being executed compared to whites? I'm not sure. If so that that isn't right.

That I don't know, but I'm willing to guess what the answer is. What I'm saying though, is that I believe all lives taken away is tragic. However, when somebody kills someone who is white, people demand DP justice. However, when poor blacks, immigrants, and other marginalized people are murdered, I don't see the same outcries.

I'm not saying Jessicas tragic death doesn't deserve any outcry. It sure as heck does! Nobody deserves a tragedy. All I'm saying is that I don't see people demanding "justice" when someone who is marginalized is murdered, as it happens every day in high-crime communities.

I think the justice system is still very much biased and flawed. Thus, sentences as ultimate as the DP have no place in a system full of inconsistencies.
 
LJT said:
I found this article on the Washington Post site, interesting read...seems Japan still uses the DP quite frequently...apparently support for it has ebbed and flowed over the centuries but it seems to be quite high at the moment...the reasons for the support though seem quite unclear.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11306-2005Jan15.html

They want the DP in use in case the Tenno screws up again. :wink:
 
diamond said:


Segues into ppl's understanding of Christianty have dominated this thread with each person's different interpretation of God's word.
Profanity has been hurled about, names have been called, and contention has filled this thread. I think that is wrong.



and do you not see yourself as the primary instigator of all of this?

guess not -- true Christians don't do that, do they.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

portrait-of-Jesus-zoom%5B1%5D.jpg
jesusbbc.jpg
Jesus_ws.jpg






toscano said:
OK, hands up everyone who thinks caucasian = white ?

Two of those guys are white, (and they are the images that Americans have been conditioned to believe represent the person in question)

and one of them looks like he belongs in GITMO. :shrug:
 
diamond said:


Unico-

I would favor taking race out of the equation.
Should Jim Seale received the death penalty? Absolutely.

Is there a disproprtionate amount of non whites being executed compared to whites? I'm not sure. If so that that isn't right.

I think though the reason is more due to economics.

A rich person usually never gets the death penalty, whether they are white black or pink.

I understand I'm of the minority opinon here-in support of the death penalty.

This thread is about the little girl who was snuffed out by a pedophile, and justice for her.

Segues into ppl's understanding of Christianty have dominated this thread with each person's different interpretation of God's word.
Profanity has been hurled about, names have been called, and contention has filled this thread. I think that is wrong.

Lastly for some that think I'm some heartless, unforgiving judgemental person it may behoove you to know that part time I work as Prison Minister for the State of Arizona Dept Of Corrections, free of charge.

For the last 6 months I've been counseling an African American man who is serving a long sentence for molestation of a minor.
I visit with and exchange letters often. The prison is about 1 hr from my home. This person is looking to change his life, and feels deeply sorrowful for his actions that wound him up in prison.


I don't look at him as an inferior human being, I look at him as somebody with a troubled soul who was raised in wrong circumstances, and although he came from a lousy home, he's still accountable for his actions. I'm there for him and to help him assist him to right the wrongs of his past, and never repeat his mistakes again.


Anyway guys I'm busy with work, kids church and my prison ministry activities.

I think the hostility in this thread does Jessica a dis service, and for that reason I'm going to bow out.

God Bless,

dbs

I'd like to ask you why there should be death penalties in a system that isn't based on absolute certainty, rather guilt merely beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

deep said:

Two of those guys are white, (and they are the images that Americans have been conditioned to believe represent the person in question)
[/B][/QUOTE]

Not only the Americans.
 
re: Most Christians aren't necessarily right.

JCOSTER said:
Don't you think that is a little inappropriate?

What, that most people have a false image of Christ?

well, anyways

It was brought into the conversation here



Diemen 08-25-2007 12:55 PM - said:



According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.


which was a reply to a post that suggested "Most Christians would support executing Covey."
 
Last edited:
Call for references.

Out of curiousity can somebody please post the data that suggest that "most Americans think Jesus was a 'WASPY' looking fellow".

I do not think Jesus' skin color is mentioned in any canon of scripture.

What is mentioned is that his dispostion and appearance was one of meekness and not too good looking in physical attributes in Isaiah.

References please, let's dis spell this allegation of a supposed poll.

dbs
 
So of the 3 pictures posted
which ones look like the ones you have seen in religious magazines and paintings on walls in homes you have seen?
 
Diamond:

phillyfan26 said:
I'd like to ask you why there should be death penalties in a system that isn't based on absolute certainty, rather guilt merely beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is a very important point that you need to address.
 
phillyfan26 said:
Diamond:



This is a very important point that you need to address.

#26-

There are more safe guards these days for the DP.

I see the DP as for the greater good in a flawed society.

Is it totally fool proof and occassionally an innocent will be killed?
Yes.
Who's fault will that be?

The prosecutor's and that is who should then be prosecuted. If he puts an innocent person to death than I say go after him.

Time restraints limit my participation in this thread, but here are a a article that coincides with my thinking.:

Opponents of the Death Penalty Have Blood on their Hands
By Dennis Prager
FrontPageMagazine.com | 11/29/2005

Those of us who believe in the death penalty for some murders are told by opponents of the death penalty that if the state executes an innocent man, we have blood on our hands.

They are right. I, for one, readily acknowledge that as a proponent of the death penalty, my advocacy could result in the killing of an innocent person.

I have never, however, encountered any opponents of the death penalty who acknowledge that they have the blood of innocent men and women on their hands.

Yet they certainly do. Whereas the shedding of innocent blood that proponents of capital punishment are responsible for is thus far, thankfully, only theoretical, the shedding of innocent blood for which opponents of capital punishment are responsible is not theoretical at all. Thanks to their opposition to the death penalty, innocent men and women have been murdered by killers who would otherwise have been put to death.

Opponents of capital punishment give us names of innocents who would have been killed by the state had their convictions stood and they been actually executed, and a few executed convicts whom they believe might have been innocent. But proponents can name men and women who really were -- not might have been -- murdered by convicted murderers while in prison. The murdered include prison guards, fellow inmates, and innocent men and women outside of prison.

In 1974, Clarence Ray Allen ordered a 17-year-old young woman, Mary Sue Kitts, murdered because she knew of Allen's involvement in a Fresno, California, store burglary.

After his 1977 trial and conviction, Allen was sentenced to life without parole.

According to San Francisco Chronicle columnist Debra Saunders, "In Folsom State Prison, Allen cooked up a scheme to kill the witnesses who testified against him so that he could appeal his conviction and then be freed because any witnesses were dead -- or scared into silence." As a result, three more innocent people were murdered -- Bryon Schletewitz, 27, Josephine Rocha, 17, and Douglas White, 18.

This time, a jury sentenced Allen to death, the only death sentence ever handed down by a Glenn County (California) jury. That was in 1982.

For 23 years, opponents of the death penalty have played with the legal system -- not to mention played with the lives of the murdered individuals' loved ones -- to keep Allen alive.

Had Clarence Allen been executed for the 1974 murder of Mary Sue Kitts, three innocent people under the age of 30 would not have been killed. But because moral clarity among anti-death penalty activists is as rare as their self-righteousness is ubiquitous, finding an abolitionist who will acknowledge moral responsibility for innocents murdered by convicted murderers is an exercise in futility.

Perhaps the most infamous case of a death penalty opponent directly causing the murder of an innocent is that of novelist Norman Mailer. In 1981, Mailer utilized his influence to obtain parole for a bank robber and murderer named Jack Abbott on the grounds that Abbott was a talented writer. Six weeks after being paroled, Abbott murdered Richard Adan, a 22-year-old newlywed, aspiring actor and playwright who was waiting tables at his father's restaurant.

Mailer's reaction? "Culture is worth a little risk," he told the press. "I'm willing to gamble with a portion of society to save this man's talent."

That in a nutshell is the attitude of the abolitionists. They are "willing to gamble with a portion of society" -- such as the lives of additional innocent victims -- in order to save the life of every murderer.

Abolitionists are certain that they are morally superior to the rest of us. In their view, we who recoil at the thought that every murderer be allowed to keep his life are moral inferiors, barbarians essentially. But just as pacifists' views ensure that far more innocents will be killed, so do abolitionists' views ensure that more innocents will die.

There may be moral reasons to oppose taking the life of any murderer (though I cannot think of one), but saving the lives of innocents cannot be regarded as one of them.

Nevertheless, abolitionists will be happy to learn that Amnesty International has taken up the cause of ensuring that Clarence Ray Allen be spared execution. That is what the international community now regards as fighting for human rights
 
diamond said:
#26-

There are more safe guards these days for the DP.

I see the DP as for the greater good in a flawed society.

Is it totally fool proof and occassionally an innocent will be killed?
Yes.
Who's fault will that be?

The prosecutor's and that is who should then be prosecuted. If he puts an innocent person to death than I say go after him.

Time restraints limit my participation in this thread, but here are a a link that coincides with my thinking.:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={A77DF01D-3064-4D6D-A4F6-56EA1E3FE345}

But it's not the job of the legal system to find him guilty completely! The legal system is based on the idea that guilt is found beyond a reasonable doubt! Why is it the fault of the prosecutor if he presents evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you think that every person who's ever been wrongly found guilty was so because of deceitful prosecutors?
 
phillyfan26 said:


But it's not the job of the legal system to find him guilty completely! The legal system is based on the idea that guilt is found beyond a reasonable doubt! Why is it the fault of the prosecutor if he presents evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you think that every person who's ever been wrongly found guilty was so because of deceitful prosecutors?

Do you think Couey is completely guilty?

dbs
 
diamond said:
Do you think Couey is completely guilty?

dbs

1. That doesn't answer my question.

2. What does my opinion have to do with the processes of the legal system? As I said to JCOSTER, there's no way to measure how certain we are that someone's guilty.
 
diamond said:
Call for references.

Out of curiousity can somebody please post the data that suggest that "most Americans think Jesus was a 'WASPY' looking fellow".

I do not think Jesus' skin color is mentioned in any canon of scripture.

What is mentioned is that his dispostion and appearance was one of meekness and not too good looking in physical attributes in Isaiah.

References please, let's dis spell this allegation of a supposed poll.

dbs

One needs not look too far past any church in america to see the evidence. Just look at the common depictions in religious art in the churches...
 
phillyfan26 said:


But it's not the job of the legal system to find him guilty completely! The legal system is based on the idea that guilt is found beyond a reasonable doubt! Why is it the fault of the prosecutor if he presents evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you think that every person who's ever been wrongly found guilty was so because of deceitful prosecutors?

Could be a myraid of reasons:
-lazy prosecutor
-racist prosecutor
-inept prosecutor.

I still say it is for the greater good that the DP remains.

And I'm not getting baited back into this thread.

I respect your opinion to disagree with mine.

good day-

dbs
 
Back
Top Bottom