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Old 08-25-2007, 11:23 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Matt 18:6

Look it up.

dbs
I've already shown how that doesn't apply...

Try again.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:28 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I've already shown how that doesn't apply...

Try again.
You tried, and failed.

Apparently Christ didn't have any qualms telling somebody that if they scandalized, harmed or terrorized a child that it would be better that they were drowned in the depths of the sea from my read.

Hardly "don't kill anybody no matter what they do" from your crowd.

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Old 08-25-2007, 11:29 PM   #243
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But you don't know for sure that they're guilty.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:30 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Matt 18:6

Look it up.
I have, and that's hardly support for capital punishment at all. In fact, I'd say that if you had read further down the chapter, you'd see it as an anti-death penalty chapter.

Quote:
This discourse of the fourth book of the gospel is often called the "church order" discourse, but it lacks most of the considerations usually connected with church order, such as various offices in the church and the duties of each, and deals principally with the relations that must obtain among the members of the church. Beginning with the warning that greatness in the kingdom of heaven is measured not by rank or power but by childlikeness (Matthew 18:1-5), it deals with the care that the disciples must take not to cause the little ones to sin or to neglect them if they stray from the community (Matthew 18:6-14), the correction of members who sin (Matthew 18:15-18), the efficacy of the prayer of the disciples because of the presence of Jesus (Matthew 18:19-20), and the forgiveness that must be repeatedly extended to sinful members who repent (Matthew 18:21-35).
"Then Peter approaching asked him, 'Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?' Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times. That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount. Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt. At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.' Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan. When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, 'Pay back what you owe.' Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt. Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair. His master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?' Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart." - Matthew 18:21-35
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:31 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


You tried, and failed.

Well then go back to those posts and show where I failed, I dare you. The fact that you didn't the first time is very telling.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:32 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


I'd be interested if you could come up with a New Testament verse in support of capital punishment.

At least in the eyes of early Christians, the Old Testament was no longer to be used for purposes of morality or law; Jesus' commandment to "love one another" was considered to have replaced it. The only reason the OT was included as part of the Christian Biblical canon at all was so that references to it in the New Testament would thus have context.

Capital punishment is implicityvalidated in the NT. Jesus acknowledged the legitamacy of capital punishment before Pilate
(John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.) as did the apostle Paul before the Roman Governor Festus. Not only so, but one of the thieves crucified with Christ had the candor to confess, We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. (Luke 23:41).

Moreover, Romans 13 implies that the failure of the governing authorities to apply the "sword" the roman symbol for capital punishment exalts evil and eradicates equity.

In short, God instituted capital punishment in the earliest stages of human civilization before the Mosaic Law, and capital punishment is never abrogated by Jesus or the Apostles. Thus capital punishment an enduring moral principle undergirding the sancity of life.


Phew.....that's all I got.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:35 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Apparently Christ didn't have any qualms telling somebody that if they scandalized, harmed or terrorized a child that it would be better that they were drowned in the depths of the sea from my read.
There's a wide difference between a parable/metaphor and a commandment. Saying that someone would be "better off having never been born," for instance, would not be reasonably interpreted to mean that abortion is morally sanctioned.

As far as I'm concerned, you're grasping for straws quoting from a grossly ambiguous verse taken out of context from a larger Biblical lesson.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:37 PM   #248
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I just remembered that Diamond is ignoring me conveniantly so he can ignore my posts that question his set of views. That means my argument against him can't be viewed. Oh well, ignorance lives on...
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:38 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
But you don't know for sure that they're guilty.
There has long been the belief (or at least lip service) in our justice system that it is better for 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man be jailed. Over the past couple of decades however, it seems to me that the opposite is deemed more acceptable. We're becoming an increasingly vengeful and vindictive nation -- much to our detriment.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:39 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




Where do you live? Are we not talking about the US here?

Please!!!
I'm talking about if I were in another country. I speaking hypathetical....Jeeeez give it a rest already.

Your the one with Cash saying FU and then below you have love thy neighbor. Whats that about...a little hypocritical.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:39 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCOSTER



Capital punishment is implicityvalidated in the NT. Jesus acknowledged the legitamacy of capital punishment before Pilate
(John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.) as did the apostle Paul before the Roman Governor Festus. Not only so, but one of the thieves crucified with Christ had the candor to confess, We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. (Luke 23:41).

Moreover, Romans 13 implies that the failure of the governing authorities to apply the "sword" the roman symbol for capital punishment exalts evil and eradicates equity.

In short, God instituted capital punishment in the earliest stages of human civilization before the Mosaic Law, and capital punishment is never abrogated by Jesus or the Apostles. Thus capital punishment an enduring moral principle undergirding the sancity of life.


Phew.....that's all I got.
You can't be serious...
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:40 PM   #252
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Yeah I am serious quoting scripture. Melon wanted to see what it said in the New Testament so there it is.

Whats your problem.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:42 PM   #253
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This constant referral to the Bible must be a uniquely American thing because I've read a lot of DP literature from Canada and the UK and I can't say I've ever, EVER seen it as a line of reasoning. Here, you can't get away from it on this thread for a second.

It's honestly tiresome. We can discuss this in terms of the rule of law and a legal system, but how do you make an argument when somebody invokes Scriptures? You've already lost. They have their beliefs and their interpretation and that's that. Totally useless form of discussion, to be frank.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:42 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCOSTER


Your the one with Cash saying FU and then below you have love thy neighbor. Whats that about...a little hypocritical.
You don't remember when Jesus overturned the tables in the temple?
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:43 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCOSTER

Your the one with Cash saying FU and then below you have love thy neighbor. Whats that about...a little hypocritical.
Perhaps the "Fuck You" is to all those people who don't love their neighbours. I'm sure Johnny Cash met a lot of people who were backstabbing jerks who could act sweet as pie to those who could help them -- after all he was in the music biz.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:43 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
There has long been the belief (or at least lip service) in our justice system that it is better for 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man be jailed. Over the past couple of decades however, it seems to me that the opposite is deemed more acceptable. We're becoming an increasingly vengeful and vindictive nation -- much to our detriment.
Dwight Schrute from The Office (terrible reference, I know) sort of parodies this thinking, he once said, "Better 1000 innocent men in jail then one guilty man go free." Thought of that when you said that.

Unfortunately, you are correct, that mad line of thinking is coming into play.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:43 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCOSTER


Whats your problem.
My problem is that your context is completely out of wack...
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:44 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
True, because there would be no murder (thou shall not kill) and no death penalty (you guessed it, thou shall not kill). There is no qualifier to that commandment. It doesn't say "thou shall not kill, unless the person did something truly awful," so at least through the lens of the 10 Commandments, the death penalty is wrong.

But all that is besides the point, because that's not the world we live in. The 10 commandments are not law.
Not to draw out a tangent (because you're right, it is beside the point) but no, that commandment, Lo tirtzakh, the second person plural masculine imperative of ratzah, is in fact the Hebrew for an extralegal killing specifically, as opposed to harag, the usual verb for 'to kill.' Ratzah is far less common (it only appears about 50 times, I think) and other than this instance, always in a context linking it to punishment. Like our word 'murder,' it specifically denotes a killing not in accord with those varieties society deems acceptable, as embodied in law. In any case, the context of the Hebrew Bible ought to make it quite clear that that was definitely a society which considered killing acceptable under some circumstances. (On the other hand, capital punishment lost rabbinic sanction in 30 AD--probably largely in reaction to Roman abuse of it--but that's another story.)
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:44 PM   #259
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From Genesis:

And from each man too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:45 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
This constant referral to the Bible must be a uniquely American thing because I've read a lot of DP literature from Canada and the UK and I can't say I've ever, EVER seen it as a line of reasoning. Here, you can't get away from it on this thread for a second.

It's honestly tiresome. We can discuss this in terms of the rule of law and a legal system, but how do you make an argument when somebody invokes Scriptures? You've already lost. They have their beliefs and their interpretation and that's that. Totally useless form of discussion, to be frank.
I think that might be why it's done.
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