Justice for Jessica........

[JCOSTER]

also, to those who support the dp, we've talked about if your children were victims. but let's turn the tables. i ask you:

if your child was the murderer, would you support the dp? if you so believe that someone who kills deserves to be killed, would you be the one to pull the switch?

If it was my child who was a murderer, he would have to face his punishment even if it were the death penalty. Could I pull the switch on my own.........no.

 

[JCOSTER]

this is cheap emotional blackmail. you can do better than this and i'm insulted that you somehow think that opposition to the death penalty means that i care ANY LESS about this little girl than you do. you are not holier than i am, you are not more compassionate than i am, you are not more concerned with this tragedy than i am.

No, I am appalled that you would even think such a thing, I didn't want people here to loose perspective on the type of crime that was committed on this little girl.

And please do not put words in my mouth! I also NEVER said I am holier than thou, if you read all my posts you get that.

I think there is a huge lack of respect for the religious beliefs people have here.

 

[JCOSTER]

and you know what just occured to me?

America has more "believers" than any other western country. American has more "Christians" who go to church regularly than any other western country. American Christians scream and yell about how we're founded on "Judeo-Christian values" and how the Founding Fathers were Jesus Freaks themselves.

and yet, we've got, by far, the highest murder rate in the western world.

you do the math.

so, let's drop our Bibles, dump Jesus, close the churches, and maybe we'll see our murder rates drop to levels seen in heathen Western Europe and Australia.

please, dump Jesus for Jessica. if you cared about Jessica, you'd do your best to secularize America so that our murder rate will go down.

if you've just come back from church, you don't care about Jessica and you want little girls to get murdered.

please, do it for Jessica.

Most of the time here you make quite good remarks and points that are well taken.

What you've said here is really offensive.

I through my values, beliefs and morals throw them right out there for everyone in a discussion and I get all this religious backlash and called a terrorist.

Irvine11, I refuse to stoop to your level when theres nothing left to say. The terrorist comment was very unique, you out did yourself.

 

[JCOSTER]

Difference between the US and other countries i sthat here people use th ebible to justify the death penalty, in other countries they used it to get it abolished.

To the Diamonds and JCOSTERs of the world, do you think you have a better understanding of the bible than the likes of the Catholic, Episcopal and Methodist churches who use it to OPPOSE the death penalthy ?

Simply no I don't....and let me reiterate that I WAS ASKED about it in the bible.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I think you know what countries have those types of punishments.

Yes, I just questioned the connection drawn.

You were like, "When we don't have capital punishment, we will do torturing people." Either, or.

 

[JCOSTER]

Yes, I just questioned the connection drawn.

You were like, "When we don't have capital punishment, we will do torturing people." Either, or.

I was being sarcastic with that quote at the time.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Ah, ok.

 

[martha]

I was being sarcastic with that quote at the time.

I say that he should be buried alive the same way she was, tortured and raped too. Good riddence for crap like him. Its just one left we have to worry about. h

Were you?

 

[martha]

Could I pull the switch on my own.........no.

You'll require others to do your dirty work for you?

 

[JCOSTER]

Oh and Martha ....just a simple thanks.

And yes I would have the legal system do the work.

 

[martha]

Oh and Martha ....just a simple thanks.

And yes I would have the legal system do the work.

You're welcome. You should think through what you say before you say it then.


WE are the legal system; it operates on our behalf. I have no problem locking a prison door on a man for the rest of his life. You should be able to carry out the punishment you support.

 

[toscano]

Simply no I don't....and let me reiterate that I WAS ASKED about it in the bible.

you know, if I lived my life and held beliefs based on a book written by illiteraye sheepherders 2000 years ago, and huge organizations who have spent a lot more resources and time studying said book and had come to a different conclusion on a major point like the death penalty, I'd probably stop and at least re-think/investigate why they come to such a different conclusion. But that's just me I guess

 

[JCOSTER]

Oh geee....maybe I should call amnesty international because apparently here I am being blasted for my beliefs and what I think should happen to John Couey.

Martha done w/u.

 

[martha]

Martha done w/u.

Ok.

 

[MadelynIris]

From a recent article about a poll:

While support for capital punishment is on the decline, it remains much higher among those who believe in deterrence, suggesting a shift in justification away from a "for the good of society" argument. The DPIC poll found that 62 percent of people still favor the death penalty as a possible punishment for those convicted of murder.

A more compelling reason for opposing the death penalty, many argue, is widespread belief that innocent people have been executed. "The lack of faith in deterrence has been involved in the debate, but it has not dominated it," says David Elliot, spokesman for the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. "I honestly believe innocence is a more salient factor."

2 interesting things -- 62% -- that's a lot. And obviously way more than "conservative christians" eh? So, it would be nice to stop using the "all you christians" lead in on these threads.

But even more interesting, the reason for decline, and I for one, am in this crowd -- I do not endorse it, unless I know 100% the person is guilty, and then it has to be for what appears to be a permanent character flaw in the form of a lack of respect for human life.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070612/12deathpenalty.htm

 

[martha]

-- 62% -- that's a lot. And obviously way more than "conservative christians" eh? So, it would be nice to stop using the "all you christians" lead in on these threads.

Maybe, but the religious beliefs of the respondents aren't included in the survey data.

And, many (if not all) of the people here in FYM getting worked up about executions are self-described Christians.

 

[redhotswami]

If it was my child who was a murderer, he would have to face his punishment even if it were the death penalty. Could I pull the switch on my own.........no.

I agree that people need to be held accountable for what they've done, thus receive the necessary punishment/rehabilitation. I just don't think that death is the only answer to that. I was asking because I think it would be a terrible thing, for the gov't and your community, to tell you your own beloved son deserves to die. You know your son better than anyone else. Earlier you spoke about how having children changes your perspective and you become more protective. Would that protective-ness make you rethink the death penalty then if your own son committed the crime?

 

[JCOSTER]

^ Honestly, I'm not sure, and if something like that happens in a family it just breaks everyone. If my kids committed a crime they would have to serve the punishment no matter what. I hope I am raising them better not to committ a crime.

As much as I can't imagine being a parent of a murdered child I can't imagine being a parent of the one who had done the deed either.

 

[redhotswami]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to accuse you of being a bad parent or accusing your children of being bad. I know you're a wonderful, loving, and dedicated mother. I'm asking for a "what if" scenario, is all.
Really though, the death penalty is like somebody else taking away the life of the child you bore and raised. Somebody else decided your child's life needs to end. Which is what murders do to other people. Can't there be another way to punish them?

 

[JCOSTER]

Yeah, there is but if that is the fate and concrete proof is 100% then thats what would be even though it would kill me too.
I totally gotchya.

 

[anitram]

While support for capital punishment is on the decline, it remains much higher among those who believe in deterrence, [/url]

This makes sense.

Those who "believe" in deterrence are flat out wrong and either have never looked at the criminal law and psych research, or just don't care.

 

[Vincent Vega]

From a recent article about a poll:

While support for capital punishment is on the decline, it remains much higher among those who believe in deterrence, suggesting a shift in justification away from a "for the good of society" argument. The DPIC poll found that 62 percent of people still favor the death penalty as a possible punishment for those convicted of murder.

A more compelling reason for opposing the death penalty, many argue, is widespread belief that innocent people have been executed. "The lack of faith in deterrence has been involved in the debate, but it has not dominated it," says David Elliot, spokesman for the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. "I honestly believe innocence is a more salient factor."

2 interesting things -- 62% -- that's a lot. And obviously way more than "conservative christians" eh? So, it would be nice to stop using the "all you christians" lead in on these threads.

But even more interesting, the reason for decline, and I for one, am in this crowd -- I do not endorse it, unless I know 100% the person is guilty, and then it has to be for what appears to be a permanent character flaw in the form of a lack of respect for human life.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070612/12deathpenalty.htm

Debating about it as a deterrence would be quite pointless, as it is obviously not a deterrence.
It's a well-known fact that most criminals, when comitting the crime, don't think for a second about the consequences.

And if it was a deterrence, as pointed out before, crime rate in the US would be much lower, or vice versa for countries not using capital punishment.

 

[yolland]

Most of the time here you make quite good remarks and points that are well taken.

What you've said here is really offensive.

I through my values, beliefs and morals throw them right out there for everyone in a discussion and I get all this religious backlash and called a terrorist.

Irvine11, I refuse to stoop to your level when theres nothing left to say. The terrorist comment was very unique, you out did yourself.

Irvine's post was a satirical inversion of these "points," which I received multiple private complaints about last night:

I always find it quite telling in this thread that that secularists thinkers have a disproportionate amount of symphathy for child molesters and oppose the death penalty.

They blur the lines between right and wrong, one can only call them on their ill placed logic, and point out to them the majority of Americans opposed theie pathetic line of thinking.

Christians don't insist on killing, murdering pedophiles do.
This is part of your twisted thinking.

Chrisrians insist on executing all facets of the law which include letting a sentenced murdering pedophile be executed, which you have a problem with.

I'm Christian and anti-DP so stop making all of Christianity follow you.

Originally posted by diamond
So call yourself a Christian, if it builds your self esteem or boosts your self confidence or whatever.

So, diamond is the last word on what Jesus wants His followers to believe concerning the death penalty, and furthermore to be a secularist is to support child molesters and murderers and not care at all what they do to their victims. This isn't the first time diamond has resorted to accusing people of supporting child molesters when he can't come up with a more structured critique of their arguments; he did the same thing to me in an unrelated thread a few months back. It wouldn't be the first time he's snidely told people they aren't "true Christians" like him or suggested that secularism is the root cause of child molestation, murder and God knows what else, either. That history is the main reason why you were eliciting offended protests to the effect that Christians don't have a monopoly on proper ethical behavior, even though you weren't suggesting they do. I agree the separate terrorism analogy was over the top, but I'm also certain it wasn't aimed at you.

All this aimless squabbling over who deserves which labels and what blame, rather than analyzing and debating the issue at hand, is what results from trying to force people into some prefabricated ideological box and then use lazy ad hominem attacks and cheap rhetorical potshots to dismiss what they never even said...whether that's through failure to articulate--we're not all ace debaters; so the fuck what--or unwillingness of others to listen and ask questions and have the patience to help someone get out what they really want to say, rather than rushing to beat them back from the word Go. Unfortunately a lot of us in here, on both "sides," succumb to that temptation more often than we should.

 

[Vincent Vega]

This makes sense.

Those who "believe" in deterrence are flat out wrong and either have never looked at the criminal law and psych research, or just don't care.

Nothing new. They believe it, so you can point them out it isn't, but they won't believe.
Since everything is just about believing, apparently.

When they believe water is dry, you can spill them over and they will say it's dry. Because they believe it.

 

[martha]

what results from trying to force people into some prefabricated ideological box

In some cases, people are quite adept at building their own boxes, then getting annoyed when others start asking about the construction methods and materials.

 

[yolland]

In some cases, yes. But that rationale also works very nicely as a self-flattering excuse for using "questions" as battering rams rather than requests for more information.

 

[phillyfan26]

Yeah, there is but if that is the fate and concrete proof is 100% then thats what would be even though it would kill me too.
I totally gotchya.

I still would like to know how we should systematically assign values to the levels of evidence. I don't understand how can we measure "how sure" we are that someone's guilty.

 

[martha]

In some cases, yes. But that rationale also works very nicely as a self-flattering excuse for using "questions" as battering rams rather than requests for more information.

Yes.

But the requests for information got tricky as well.

 

[Irvine511]

2 interesting things -- 62% -- that's a lot. And obviously way more than "conservative christians" eh? So, it would be nice to stop using the "all you christians" lead in on these threads.

in *this* thread, it has been "all you Christians" complete with totally irrelevant-to-law Biblical quotes and charges of "you're not a true Christian" if you believe such-and-such. others have noted that many Christians -- like, you know, Catholics -- are religiously opposed to the death penalty.

but, in *this* thread, and in generalized protestant evanglical circles, the death penalty is supported with the (again, irrelevant) Biblical points.

 

[Irvine511]

No, I am appalled that you would even think such a thing, I didn't want people here to loose perspective on the type of crime that was committed on this little girl.

And please do not put words in my mouth! I also NEVER said I am holier than thou, if you read all my posts you get that.

I think there is a huge lack of respect for the religious beliefs people have here.

1. my 2nd post was not aimed at you; it was satirical; and i am sorry you took it personally. yolland has addressed this, and her assessment was indeed correct.

2. posting her picture was essentially the same argument as diamond was putting forth -- which is, "you don't care about this little girl if you don't support the death penalty for this guy." and that, to me, is completely bogus, and completely offensive.

3. my response was worded too strongly, and for that i apologize. i stand by my point as stated above -- you do not care more about her than me because you support the death penalty.

4. one's religious beliefs are utterly irrelevant to the appropriate application of secular American laws. i don't care one way or the next what you believe. the Bible is meaningless in the context of this argument. if you want to use it as a way to form a personal opinion, that's fine, but that's a long way from someone using the Bible as a Cliffs Notes version of American law.

5. you strike me as a kind, caring person. and so am i. and i have not "lost perspective" on what's happened here because i remain opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances. he could do this to 10 little girls and i still wouldn't support the death penalty because my oppostion to the death penalty has nothing to do with the implication that a crime has to be *really* bad to warrant the death penalty and everything to do with the fact that the death penalty has nothing to do with justice, the rule of law, peace, order, good government, etc.