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Old 12-07-2006, 07:27 AM   #21
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
Also you'll find that Christianity is quite prevalent in Africa, and Christians strongly dissapprove of the condom which means if for example, we consider taking in a migrant from Africa who has AIDS there's a good chance his faith will prohibit him in practicing safe sex here and the disease will spread. Christianity kills (another issue altogether though)
What a load of rubbish. From the kernel of truth (the unpopularity of the safe-sex message among men in some African countries, which I think you'll find has as much to do with machismo as with any Christian doctrine), we leap by magnificent bounds to a new basis for immigration policy.

You do realise, that by your logic we should refuse any immigrant from Africa, right? After all, AIDs ain't the only nasty STD.

Or any Christian? After all, Christianity kills (another issue altogether).

I thought it was Islam that kills. I'm so confused.
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:33 AM   #22
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I don't approve of just casting aspersions on decisions made by people in positions of power. It makes no sense to me to simply show no empathy and rule out understanding their perspective and not come up with any alternatives of your own if you were them.
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:41 AM   #23
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Originally posted by Kieran McConville


What a load of rubbish. From the kernel of truth (the unpopularity of the safe-sex message among men in some African countries, which I think you'll find has as much to do with machismo as with any Christian doctrine), we leap by magnificent bounds to a new basis for immigration policy.

You do realise, that by your logic we should refuse any immigrant from Africa, right? After all, AIDs ain't the only nasty STD.

Or any Christian? After all, Christianity kills (another issue altogether).

I thought it was Islam that kills. I'm so confused.
AIDS is the deadliest disease - other STD's im not familiar with but they will pale in comparison to the devastating effects of aids. Why would we let AIDS infected people into the country that will just absorb medical and other welfare costs (like I said before) and is very likely not going to work and contribute to economic growth? And they can risk spreading the disease to other Australians. Justify it if you had to make the decision.

I raised the point of many africans not using condoms because of Christianity to provide an example of how it can be spread in our society if we let them migrate. And yes in that sense, Christianity can kill which is another issue.
AIds can also be spread if they are simply unwilling to use the condom for whatever reason (it happens) and IMO it's not worth the risk.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:03 AM   #24
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
Why would we let AIDS infected people into the country that will just absorb medical and other welfare costs (like I said before) and is very likely not going to work and contribute to economic growth?
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A Department of Immigration spokeswoman rejected the claims, saying stringent health checks were carried out on all permanent and temporary residents.
Well, then, it looks like your fears are unfounded.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:05 AM   #25
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Secondly, while i dont think immigrants should be able to recieve financial benefits for the rest of their lives purely for being refugees/immigrants, i do believe they should have the same access to everything and support and money to help set up a home for themselves here. We're not talking about millions of dollars per family, just enough to help them get on their feet to be ABLE to contribute to society. I don't think putting every single person to work will help anyway (and what about stay at home mums, people with severe trama etc)
Totally agree with you. But there are many cases (I even know of 2 I know who come into my work) where immigrants purely take advantage of our relatively VERY generous system and do not contribute to society. It angers me as it would anyone here.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:07 AM   #26
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Well, then, it looks like your fears are unfounded.
I JUST noticed that and was about to adress it, thankyou for pointing that out. Does this mean people with AIDS are refused entry? That's what I'm assuming.....?
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:11 AM   #27
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Political choice in australia has gone downhill since the day Natasha Stott-Despoja quit (or was forced out) as leader of the Democrats. She's just about the only politician that i've had respect for in this country for a very long time.
The only positive I can see in the future is if Peter Garrett develops into a strong leader within the Labor Party.
And did anyone see the tv tonight with ulia Gillard being criticised for her hairstyle and dress sense? Seriously, is that what the public really care about in a female politician?
And don't even get me started on Pauline Hanson!!!
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:12 AM   #28
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But see, would you rather this person die out in a file din Africa from the disease, or live a relativly long life out here in Australia. I don't think we can pick and choose who we accept in this country. A perso with AIDS is really no different to someone who has diabetes. You can't catch AIDS, i do not see the big deal?
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:23 AM   #29
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Well I'll be the first American to jump in this thread, which I think is OK, given that we get your kind (joke!) in our threads all the time. This is thread really interesting, I didn't know much about Australian politics. We have a few American politicians I'd like to throw onto that Antartican island with this woman.


Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
Also you'll find that Christianity is quite prevalent in Africa, and Christians strongly dissapprove of the condom which means if for example, we consider taking in a migrant from Africa who has AIDS there's a good chance his faith will prohibit him in practicing safe sex here and the disease will spread. Christianity kills (another issue altogether though)
It's not Christianity, first of all, it's Catholicism, which is somewhat prevalent but by far not the only factor. It's a conbination too of a macho attitude, of poor information dissemination and of unfortunately a great many bits of misinformation. It's cultural, beyond religion. But people who a) choose to emmigrate and b) begin living in another country show a few things. They show a willingness to leave their culture and join a new one, and they are prefectly eager to learn new customs. I've worked with refugrees waiting for "repatriation" as they call it - waiting for their number to come up so they can get into a Western country. They want this so badly and they are willing to open their minds to new cultures and practices. And largely it's a matter of poor education on the issue; once corrected (easily by the new country) this goes away.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:24 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
But see, would you rather this person die out in a file din Africa from the disease, or live a relativly long life out here in Australia. I don't think we can pick and choose who we accept in this country. A perso with AIDS is really no different to someone who has diabetes. You can't catch AIDS, i do not see the big deal?
IF they do not spread the disease (impossible to regulate and guarantee) and IF they can work and contribute to society then I'm all for it! That's most likely not the case, and I don't see the option of letting them in being justified on anything but compassionate grounds which is not the way a government works. The government doesn't want to let in migrants with AIDS and spend X dollars on them with medical/welfare costs whilst contributing nothing and risk them spreading disease. It makes no sense.
And apparantly, the government refuses entry to AIDS people already which makes my argument pointless because they agree with me.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:34 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
Also you'll find that Christianity is quite prevalent in Africa, and Christians strongly dissapprove of the condom which means if for example, we consider taking in a migrant from Africa who has AIDS there's a good chance his faith will prohibit him in practicing safe sex here and the disease will spread. Christianity kills (another issue altogether though)
You know so little about Christianity and Africa it's not even funny.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:41 AM   #32
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But do you understand that people with AIDS DON'T spread the disease accidently.

Ok for example, if a man or women has AIDS and has unprotected sex with people without telling them they have AIDS then yes, they should be charged (is there even a law about this yet) and go to gaol.

BUT for the most part (say 99%) of AIDS victims, they are just like you and me, and therefore should not require any special treatment, or be denied anything (apart from the usual cautionary things)

i just don't see any sense in denying someone the right to be safe in a 1st world country, with our medicial facilities and medicines available, purely because they have a disease. Its not a big scary monster anymore, people live 15/20 years with AIDS now, and we are so much more prepared in this country. I just think its like saying to war victims missing legs or arms or eyes 'sorry we don't want you as you cannot work and will be a drain on our system' The world has a responsability to help our fellow man, regardless of who he is why he looks like and what non catchable diseases they have.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:52 AM   #33
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You know so little about Christianity and Africa it's not even funny.
"Promoting condom use, however, has often proved controversial and difficult. Many religious groups, most noticeably the Catholic Church, have opposed the use of condoms on religious grounds, and have sometimes seen condom promotion as an affront to the promotion of marriage, monogamy and sexual morality. This attitude is found among some health care providers and policy makers in sub-Saharan African nations, where HIV and AIDS prevalence is extremely high.[57] They also believe that the distribution and promotion of condoms is tantamount to promoting sex amongst the youth and sending the wrong message to uninfected individuals."

link


I interchanged christianity in general and catholicism, innocent mistake. It's not even the core of my argument, it was a very small example I used. Don't wait for opportunites like this where I make the slightest slip up to pounce.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:01 AM   #34
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman


"Promoting condom use, however, has often proved controversial and difficult. Many religious groups, most noticeably the Catholic Church, have opposed the use of condoms on religious grounds, and have sometimes seen condom promotion as an affront to the promotion of marriage, monogamy and sexual morality."

link


I interchanged christianity in general and catholicism, innocent mistake. It's not even the core of my argument, it was a very small example I used. Don't wait for opportunites like this where I make the slightest slip up to pounce.
It's not an innocent mistake, it's a naive mistake at best. And who's using anything to pounce? You used this misinformation to attack. So maybe you should look in the mirror before telling others not to pounce.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:09 AM   #35
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Re: Just when I thought politics in Australia couldn't get any worse...

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Hanson plans return to politics. theage.com.au

Pauline Hanson has ruffled a few feathers with the announcement yesterday she was planning a return to federal politics and would campaign about industrial relations laws and the ease with which Muslims and "diseased" Africans were entering Australia.

"I've been on about water for many, many years - but also immigration," she said.

"Why shouldn't Australians know that the people we bring in to this country are there for the right reasons, and we bring them in for the right reasons?

"Why do we have to bring people in who are of no benefit to this country whatsoever, who are going to take away our way of life, change our laws?

"And I'm asking these questions. And it's about time someone dam well did, because the federal government is not addressing the concerns of the Australian people."

'They've got AIDS'

Ms Hanson also said she was concerned by the ease with which people were able to gain Australian citizenship, especially Muslims and Africans.

"We're bringing in people from South Africa at the moment, there's a huge amount coming into Australia, who have diseases, they've got AIDS," Ms Hanson told AAP.

"They are of no benefit to this country whatsoever, they'll never be able to work.

"And what my main concern is, is the diseases that they're bringing in and yet no one is saying or doing anything about it."

A Department of Immigration spokeswoman rejected the claims, saying stringent health checks were carried out on all permanent and temporary residents.

Refugee groups were angered by Ms Hanson's comments, calling them "fanciful", damaging and hurtful to Africans who were simply trying for a life in Australia.

But Ms Hanson said politicians had gone too far in affording rights to minority groups and she was angered at the loss of Australian traditions because of Muslims.

"Our governments have bent over backwards to look after them (Muslims) and their needs, and regardless of what the Australian people think," she said.

"You can't have schools not sing Christmas carols because it upsets others, you can't close swimming baths because Muslim women want to swim in private, that's not Australian."

The Media was her best friend when she became well known.

Please don't let it happen again Australia
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:46 AM   #36
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Just as a sidebar, the Bush Admin won't allow the promotion of using condoms during sex, so using your logic you shouldn't allow any Americans in as well. I believe all the Christian faiths promote abstinence?
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:57 AM   #37
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Just as a sidebar, the Bush Admin won't allow the promotion of using condoms during sex, so using your logic you shouldn't allow any Americans in as well. I believe all the Christian faiths promote abstinence?

-an american
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:24 PM   #38
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She's failed at everything she's touched. I'm just surprised there's no-one around her pulling her aside this time and saying "Umm, I wouldn't bother".

The media give her all her power though - particularly talkback radio.
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Old 12-08-2006, 01:53 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
I don't approve of just casting aspersions on decisions made by people in positions of power. It makes no sense to me to simply show no empathy and rule out understanding their perspective and not come up with any alternatives of your own if you were them.

Needless to say, I disagree. That is how they want you to think, my friend.

I have a different standard. Now, 'aspersions' are one thing, let's stick with 'legitimate criticism' for starters. I have a different standard because the powerful, have, well, POWER. Over you. Over me. That alone holds them to a different standard because they have resources that you and I do not. Their mistakes, disinterest or malice can destroy us... at worst we the citizen Joe or Jane might hurt their feelings.

Tough shit.
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:41 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville



Needless to say, I disagree. That is how they want you to think, my friend.

I have a different standard. Now, 'aspersions' are one thing, let's stick with 'legitimate criticism' for starters. I have a different standard because the powerful, have, well, POWER. Over you. Over me. That alone holds them to a different standard because they have resources that you and I do not. Their mistakes, disinterest or malice can destroy us... at worst we the citizen Joe or Jane might hurt their feelings.

Tough shit.
I agree.

The power of 'discretion' needs an alert audience.
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