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Old 12-13-2001, 03:28 AM   #21
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
I'm sure Bill Clinton would never dream of doing such a thing, if given the chance. Nor would any other red-blooded politician.
Does this even matter??? In case you didn't notice, Bush is president now. We had a Supreme Court case to decide this, remember?

If FDR or JFK or Nixon or Clinton or Bush I/II or anyone else were doing this, I'd be opposed to it. But it is funny how Republicans do this quite often, and try to dismiss opponents as unpatriotic.

If you'd like, let me post the ideological differences:

1) liberal - opposed to social control, supports business control.
2) conservative - supports social control, opposes business control
3) libertarian - opposes social control, opposes business control
4) authoritarian - supports social control, supports business control

Bush is a conservative through and through, and so are all of his appointees. The FCC has decided to neglect all business regulations, while heightened content regulations, most recently with radio content. Ashcroft is content on letting Microsoft get off easy on the antitrust suit (he'd have dismissed it, if it weren't for the conviction that happened before he came to power), but has a record of social control measures--that's 1 reason why Ashcroft's appointment was attempted to be blocked by the Democratic Congress.

Clinton, on the other hand, was more libertarian in scope. How else could, under him, there have been so many gigantic mega-mergers? I was opposed to this part of Clinton, but he was better than Bush I or Bob Dole, whose 1996 tax plan was, after being analyzed with actual data figures, would have given the U.S. a $200 billion deficit, rather than the Clinton-era surpluses. And, somehow, Republicans are better presidents? I'm still waiting for one who isn't a total control freak on our personal lives, while also not neglecting our business laws so much, as virtually ensure that we have more virtual monopolies.

With all due respect, the "well, Clinton would have done it" argument is hollow in this circumstance. Quite honestly, I don't think he would have done this, but we don't know. And it doesn't matter. It is in the past.

~melon

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[This message has been edited by Hans Moleman (edited 12-12-2001).]
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Old 12-13-2001, 03:42 AM   #22
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ohhh melon, melon, melon. Your reaction was exactly as I expected. Save your breath. I'm not about to jump into this no-win debate, I just wanted to make a side point. My point being...all politicians are fickle and not opposed to using whatever circumstances come across their paths to reach political goals. Be they Republican or Democrat. End of point. You may now return to your regularly scheduled vitriol.
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Old 12-13-2001, 05:40 AM   #23
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Hello,

There is still some great discussing about all this: is it a war (against a country) or not? Somehow, the question become less silly every day.
The first few days after the attack everyones feeling was of disbelief, sadness and revenge, of totally destroying everything even remotely related to the terrorists. Fortunately, the US government took its time to answer in a considerate way.
Now, other issues come into play.
- Insurance: who's going to repay for the damages of the attacks? If it truly is a war (as the US government says) then the insurance companies probably do not have to pay for it. Most insurances have a clause that the insurance is void in an act of war. So a war = no money. Is it a terrorist attack (my opinion) than that clause is not applicable and do the insurance companies have to pay.
- Trials: If it truly is an international conflict/war then maybe the UN should step in when trialing the enemy. They're already doing this for Ruanda and Yugoslavia, so why not add a court for Afghanistan. This will ensure an honest and open process where sentiments will not prevail (as it will when trialed for a military court: the military judges will have to judge persons who have attacked their country). Added bonus will be that the court will most likely be based in the Netherlands, relaying possible enemy attacks to that country instead of the USA.
If it is a terrorist attack, then the USA may handle it domestically when they have captured Bin Laden (there will be problems however when another country captures him. For instance, should the Brits capture Bin Laden than they do not want to extradite him to the USA unless they get the assurance that he will not get the death penalty). Even then, an open process may be the best option, as evidence will be clear to everyone. Also the root of hatred may get known, improving the chance of actually tackling that problem and truly make the world a safer place. This was done in Israel with the trial of Adolf Eichmann (on which there was an article this week in a paper here), where they put him publicly on trial to let the world known what had happened and that it should never happen again.

Hmm, war is dirty, war is ugly, war is not the answer and it is mighty difficult. Again, it is a nice subject where the opinions are so divided. However, I think that in the end the question of how to trial Bin Laden is not necessary as I don't think anyone will get him alive.

C ya!

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Old 12-13-2001, 06:08 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Popmartijn:
However, I think that in the end the question of how to trial Bin Laden is not necessary as I don't think anyone will get him alive.
I agree, but the tribunals are of course not only meant for Bin Laden, but also for killing off anyone else suspected of being involved in the terrorist attacks.

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Old 12-13-2001, 08:30 AM   #25
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Originally posted by Klodomir:
I agree, but the tribunals are of course not only meant for Bin Laden, but also for killing off anyone else suspected of being involved in the terrorist attacks.
I'm a bit confused here. Are they meant for *all* suspects, or just those captured on the battlefield?
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Old 12-13-2001, 09:05 AM   #26
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I'm a bit confused here. Are they meant for *all* suspects, or just those captured on the battlefield?
If I understand it correctly, all non US-citizens that are suspected regarding the terrorist attacks will be brought to the military court. So it is not just those captured on the battlefield (Afghanistan), but everybody linked to the attack and not being a US citizen.

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Old 12-13-2001, 09:47 AM   #27
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It would work if the war was "backdated" to September 11, wouldn't it? If you view the attacks as the start of the war - and I'm sure the US government does, because otherwise it would mean that the US started the war - then the people responsible for those could be tried in the same way, no?
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Old 12-13-2001, 07:21 PM   #28
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
You have completely deflected my point. No, Dubya did not stage this war, but he is exploiting it to further his own agenda he would not likely get through otherwise.

~melon

Holy shit.. how can you say that.?.. I think I just booted onto my computer keyboard, That's about as sick as teh Doonsbury Comic that Said the exact same thing.. Apparently you didn't come up with this sort of statement yourself... thousands of americans died at the hands of a merciless extremist.. Bush isn't exploiting anything for a little 'personal' gain.. That would be something clinton or gore would have done.. Bush just wants justice, he wants an end to this.. and it's just sick of you to make such a statement.
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Old 12-13-2001, 07:40 PM   #29
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Bush isn't exploiting anything for a little 'personal' gain.. That would be something clinton or gore would have done.. Bush just wants justice, he wants an end to this.. and it's just sick of you to make such a statement.
Trashing the Constitution at every possible oppertunity is not seeking "justice". And it is not "sick" to make vailid criticsm about the sorry performance of the U.S government in response to this tragedy.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 12-13-2001).]

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Old 12-13-2001, 07:45 PM   #30
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Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
And it is not anything remotely "sick" to make vailid criticsm about the sorry performance of the U.S government in response to this tragedy.
Kind of a side topic perhaps, but I'm curious, so what the hell. I hear you complain quite a bit about the handling of the situation. In a best-case scenario, given the circumstances, what would YOU do if you were the President in this time? Curious to hear your ideas.
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Old 12-13-2001, 08:33 PM   #31
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Once again, Sula, I ponder the same question.

And also: who do y'all think did it? Bozo the Clown? I've seen a few comments here and there in these threads that "we/Ashcraft/Bush/U.S. military/media don't know" if OBL, Al Qaeda, the Taliban and all of the other humanitarian groups actually did it. So I am curious as to who would be on your suspect lists?

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Old 12-13-2001, 09:48 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Lemonite:
Holy shit.. how can you say that.?.. I think I just booted onto my computer keyboard, That's about as sick as teh Doonsbury Comic that Said the exact same thing.. Apparently you didn't come up with this sort of statement yourself... thousands of americans died at the hands of a merciless extremist.. Bush isn't exploiting anything for a little 'personal' gain.. That would be something clinton or gore would have done.. Bush just wants justice, he wants an end to this.. and it's just sick of you to make such a statement.
Your sarcasm is interesting, and I've learned it finally.

As for "Doonesbury," I never saw that particular strip that dealt with that, so it is a coincidence, but a lot of people have questioned it, not just me.

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Old 12-14-2001, 03:51 AM   #33
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Originally posted by Lemonite:
Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
You have completely deflected my point. No, Dubya did not stage this war, but he is exploiting it to further his own agenda he would not likely get through otherwise.

Bush isn't exploiting anything for a little 'personal' gain.. That would be something clinton or gore would have done.. Bush just wants justice, he wants an end to this...[/B]
I don't know. Cancelling the ABM treaty almost confirms the view as posted by Melon. This missile defense shield was on the wishlist of the Republicans for a long time. Now Bush is president they finally have it 'in light of the recent events' (or something like that, I don't know exactly the quote Bush used). There is a lot of opposition against this shield, but Bush used the terrorist attacks to push it through.

Just my opinion,

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Old 12-14-2001, 10:09 AM   #34
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Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
Trashing the Constitution at every possible oppertunity is not seeking "justice". And it is not "sick" to make vailid criticsm about the sorry performance of the U.S government in response to this tragedy.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 12-13-2001).] 'Sorry Performance'?????!?!!?! Where are you getting your news from?.. Wev'e got the best people in the world running this war.. They're intelligent, they're truthful and honest, and they care.. They are doing what they think is right, and It's about time that I can say that about the us president and his crew.. god knows for the past eight years we've been ruled by polls

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Old 12-14-2001, 10:11 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Popmartijn:
I don't know. Cancelling the ABM treaty almost confirms the view as posted by Melon. This missile defense shield was on the wishlist of the Republicans for a long time. Now Bush is president they finally have it 'in light of the recent events' (or something like that, I don't know exactly the quote Bush used). There is a lot of opposition against this shield, but Bush used the terrorist attacks to push it through.

Just my opinion,

Marty


He was going to bounce from that treaty to begin with.. That's nothing new.. HE was going to do it back when he was campaigning for president..did you not pick up on that.. and look, Russia has no problems with it.. Cuz it's for china and n. korea anyways...

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Old 12-14-2001, 11:05 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn:
I don't know. Cancelling the ABM treaty almost confirms the view as posted by Melon. This missile defense shield was on the wishlist of the Republicans for a long time. Now Bush is president they finally have it 'in light of the recent events' (or something like that, I don't know exactly the quote Bush used). There is a lot of opposition against this shield, but Bush used the terrorist attacks to push it through.

Just my opinion,

Marty


He was going to bounce from that treaty to begin with.. That's nothing new.. HE was going to do it back when he was campaigning for president..did you not pick up on that..

Exactly. Have you people forgotten that he was gonna do it anyway? And as far as "pushing it through", there is no nedd to "push it through", because it is the president's power and his alone.

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Old 12-14-2001, 11:07 AM   #37
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He was going to bounce from that treaty to begin with.. That's nothing new.. HE was going to do it back when he was campaigning for president..did you not pick up on that..
If you read my post well you'll see I also mention that. But Bush is now using Sep. 11 as an excuse to push it through, despite all the concern about the missile shield (that also existed before Sep. 11).

Here is an excerpt from yesterday's Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/daily/13/bush_treaty.htm

Quote:
Bush, who campaigned last year on building the kind of missile defense shield banned by the treaty, said the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks made his cause more urgent.

"Today, the events of Sept. 11 made all too clear the greatest threats to both our countries come not from each other or other big powers in the world but from terrorist attacks who strike without warning or rogue states who seek weapons of mass destruction," Bush said.
So you see that he is using those events as an excuse to pursue his personal agenda.

Quote:
and look, Russia has no problems with it.. Cuz it's for china and n. korea anyways...
Russia does have problems with it, as do many other US-friendly countries (European Union, for example). They only positive thing they said is that Bush's action will not undermine the US-Russian relationship. But Russia might does issue a warning that it is a bad move and that it might take counter actions.

From the same Boston Globe article:
Quote:
"President Putin and I have also agreed that my decision to withdraw from the treaty will not in any way undermine our new relationship or Russian security," Bush said.

...

Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov said the decision was regrettable because it undermined global strategic balances -- but he was not concerned about Russia's security.

...

Putin cautioned last winter that jettisoning the treaty could lead to the unraveling of three decades of arms control accords. China has warned a new arms race could ensue.

...

The Bush administration intends to cooperate with Russia at least to the extent of informing Moscow of steps being taken to advance the missile-shield program.

That's not likely to stop Russia from taking retaliatory steps. A senior Russian lawmaker predicted Russia will pull out of the Start I and Start II arms reduction treaties.

"We believe that offensive and defensive tools of nuclear deterrence must be linked," said Dmitry Rogozin, chairman of the Duma's international affairs committee, according to Interfax news agency.

Such a spiral of withdrawals would be dangerous -- and predictable, said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

"Unilateral withdrawal will likely lead to an action-reaction cycle in offensive and defensive technologies, including countermeasures," he said. "That kind of arms race would not make us more secure."
Anyway, I think I'll stop now, before this thread becomes like the ABM-thread as it more belongs over there.

Marty

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Old 12-14-2001, 11:08 AM   #38
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Exactly. Have you people forgotten that he was gonna do it anyway? And as far as "pushing it through", there is no nedd to "push it through", because it is the president's power and his alone.
Yes, but this way he might get less resistance from the rest of the world. This is so calculated! He has smart advisors. Then again, the rest of the world isn't too stupid either, and not very many people outside of the US trust George W. There'll be more questions coming.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 12-14-2001).]
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Old 12-14-2001, 02:16 PM   #39
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Anyway, I think I'll stop now, before this thread becomes like the ABM-thread as it more belongs over there.

Marty

Taken off the drudgereport...

BUSH AND PUTIN MAKE DEAL
GENERAL Colin Powell has said that yesterday's American withdrawal from the 1972 anti-ballistic missile treaty was "orchestrated" with Russia in an act of co-operation that would previously have been unthinkable.

He said...powell: "For those who have predicted catastrophe, they are going to find out that an arms race does not break out between the US and Russia. In fact, at the same time Russia heard our notice of withdrawal they agreed to cut their weapons to our level."

The Bush administration believes that a missile defence system will defend both America and Russia against the threat of nuclear attack from "rogue" states.

Russia is warming up to the idea.. Most of the opposition just comes because these other countries aren't able to create a missle defense shield... But this is evidence that they have far fewer problems with everything than they initialy did..

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Old 12-14-2001, 02:25 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Exactly. Have you people forgotten that he was gonna do it anyway? And as far as "pushing it through", there is no nedd to "push it through", because it is the president's power and his alone.
Yes, but this way he might get less resistance from the rest of the world. This is so calculated! He has smart advisors. Then again, the rest of the world isn't too stupid either, and not very many people outside of the US trust George W. There'll be more questions coming.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 12-14-2001).]

Ok, klodo.. i'm not sure where you're from.. but now that you've learned that Bush was pushing for this missle defense way back over a year ago.. If you are an american, I would hope that you would see that there is a need for this, So what if the current situation helps out bush's agenda... Apparently, the restof the country is starting to see BUsh's idea.. if it were still such a RAGINGLY RADICAL idea.. then people would oppose it still, it's jst that the american people are starting to see how necessary it was, the rest of teh world are starting to see it is necessary, and people world wide are now giving credit for the forsight of bush and chaney as they called over a year ago.. ahead of the 'popular craze' if you wish.. i won't get into a parallel ofu2's album pop.. another ahead of the time idea.. But again, i've said it before, to try and make a statement that Bush is capitolizing on the Deaths of thousand americans, for his sole intrinsic giddynesss of 'putting thruogh his agenda' is sick and twisted, He is using the situation as a more immediate warning to the fact that there is now a more desperate need for this missle shield to be developed.. If he is using the memorial of thousandsof americans to get an already ignorant public to realize just how evil these people are, and just how destructive these people are, that any extra motions of defense are necessary, so as to stop thousands more americans from dying... Klodomir.. From all your statements, I would assume that you are Praying for a missile to land right in your beer mug as you type of How unprofessional it is for Bush to use a tragedy for the sole intrinsic purpose of him feeling successful.. Bush is a man of character, he cares for his people.. I think it's a somewhat jaded and really a mootless pointed argument that BUsh wants things just cuz he wants to be signing bills ... He doesn't work that way, Maybe he's trying to save your life.. Whether you're an american or not...
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