it's His followers I could live without

[VintagePunk]

Do you have kids? If you do, then you will understand that you can still love your child witha ll of your heart even though you are upset be their behavior or cultural expressions.

So you would be upset with a child who was born left-handed, an inherent quality that was given to them by your god? Because that's what homosexuality is, it's inherent, and not a choice that's made.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Congratulations, A_W. You've successfully proven that anyone can rationalize away any activity, at any time, in any given circumstances. I mean, hey -- as long as we're at it, murder can be justified too, can't it? Theft? etc....

Murder and theft are each violations of other peoples individual rights, adultery is a violation of a social contract between two partners and would factor into divorce proceedings but the act of adultery itself isn't a violation of other peoples rights and shouldn't be punished. I don't think adultery is generally a good thing, I don't think it is always a bad thing but I can see how making laws against something that already carries a social stigma but doesn't hurt anybody (other than emotionally - in general) would lead to plenty of bad results.

I don't want the law to be mandating morality; it should act as a deterrent for criminals and be just and consistent in codifying interactions but when it comes to things like sex between consenting adults, legality of cloning for therapeutic purposes or otherwise (although not government funding), when people are allowed to work, who people have to respect and what we are allowed to say it has to be completely hands off.

The idea that we have freedom of action and interaction provided it does not harm other people is a much better outlook for behaviour than arbitrary religious rules. Because I expouse the freedom to do things that have negative concequences does not mean that I do these things; I just won't stop anyone else from doing them. It is about freedom and responsibility; two things that most people are capable of living with.

 

[phillyfan26]

Murder and theft are each violations of other peoples individual rights, adultery is a violation of a social contract between two partners and would factor into divorce proceedings but the act of adultery itself isn't a violation of other peoples rights and shouldn't be punished. I don't think adultery is generally a good thing, I don't think it is always a bad thing but I can see how making laws against something that already carries a social stigma but doesn't hurt anybody (other than emotionally - in general) would lead to plenty of bad results.

The idea that we have freedom of action and interaction provided it does not harm other people is a much better outlook for behaviour than arbitrary religious rules. Because I expouse the freedom to do things that have negative concequences does not mean that I do these things; I just won't stop anyone else from doing them. It is about freedom and responsibility; two things that most people are capable of living with.

Adultery does hurt someone. It hurts the person being cheated on. That's why it's in the commandments. That's why it's considered so wrong. You have to remember that when two people decide something, the decision makers aren't the only ones being hurt. You just blatantly said that adultery hurts no one, it doesn't violate people's rights. It does.

 

[martha]

So you would be upset with a child who was born left-handed, an inherent quality that was given to them by your god? Because that's what homosexuality is, it's inherent, and not a choice that's made.

No, it's ok if they're left-handed. It's when they choose to write with that left hand, that's when the problem starts.

 

[AEON]

No, it's ok if they're left-handed. It's when they choose to write with that left hand, that's when the problem starts.

I understand your point here. And this is where I do struggle a bit with the issue. However, this is where I put all of my understanding aside and place my faith that God knows what is best for us.

He doesn't say being left handed or writing left handed is a sin. He does say that acting out homosexual desires is indeed a sin - and I accept everything else God says - so why throw out this one?

There are many things that will remain a mystery to humans. Our finite minds simply cannot comprehend the totality of God’s plan for us. And we are not asked to understand everything. We are asked to surrender our hearts and minds to Jesus Christ, and allow His Spirit to become our logic, our morality, our love, and our character.

 

[Ormus]

He doesn't say being left handed or writing left handed is a sin. He does say that acting out homosexual desires is indeed a sin - and I accept everything else God says - so why throw out this one?

No, God doesn't, and I've perfectly explained why this logic doesn't fly in past threads. All the so-called Old Testament prohibitions are mistranslations of archaic idolatrous sexual practices. The mere fact that people believe that they are expanded prohibitions against all same-sex behavior is sheerly out of prejudice.

There's similar (il)logic when it comes to racism. If a black person offends a white racist, then all black people are bad. If a white person offends a white racist, then he's just an isolated bad apple. Likewise, if one same-sex act is described as bad, whether in the context of rape or idolatry and/or prostitution, then the logical fallacy goes that all same-sex acts are prohibited--and, indeed, many medieval and modern translators have allowed their prejudices to mangle the correct translation. However, if one opposite-sex act is described as bad, whether in the context of rape or idolatry and/or prostitution, then it's just an isolated bad act.

(Melon)

 

[80sU2isBest]

So are you good with someone who says "I am not against Jews,
It is just their Jewish practices or Jewish behavior that I am against."?

Sure I am okay with that. In fact, my Muslim friend didn't like my Christian beliefs or practices, and yet treated me very well and we got along very well. He treated me with the upmost respect as a person.

 

[80sU2isBest]

oops

 

[80sU2isBest]

I have read much into this debate. My one question is this: is it more important to do the right thing, and love all your neighbors, and be faithful to God, and follow his commandments, or to tell others exactly how to do it? If someone asks for your belief, asks for your guidance, by all means tell them how you feel. But a part of religion is personal interpretation. Your interpretation of how the Bible should be followed, of how religion should be practiced, may not be in accord with that of others. So, I must ask, if a homosexual person hasn't asked for your opinion on whether his homosexuality is OK in the standards of God, why is it that you must tell him what you feel?

In real life, I don't. The only reasons I will do it here is if:

(1)My beliefs are attacked
(2)Another Christian who has stated his beliefs is being treated like poop.

Usually, the gay marriage threads start in a fashion similar to this example:

Post 1: We're one step closer to Gay marriages being accepted. Read this article: www.any-url.com

Post 2:

Post 3: It's about time. Now if only the southern states would start doing this. But there's 2 many bigoted Conservative Christians in southern states.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Pretty convenient and self-serving system they have going there, isn't it? Do whatever you want, confess/ask for forgiveness, and it's all good, the slate is clean.

That's a common misconception held by people who don't understand the nature of salvation. When a person becomes a Christian, the Bible tells us that he is "born again". His spirit, which once was dead, is made alive and joined with the Holy Spirit. He becomes a "new creation". His sin nature (that drive/propulsion to sin) is crucified, and is replaced with a new nature, created by Christ. This new nature changes the person'd desires. In his inner man/his perfect spirit, a Christian doesn't "want to" sin. That isn't to say that a Christian doesn't sin, because the flesh and spirit are often at war. However, when I do sin, I am convicted of it by the Holy Spirit. I hate sinning.

Are there people who claim to be Christians that seem to really enjoy sinning, don't care that they're sinning, and appear to use salvation as a license to sin? Yes, there are. But based on what the Bible says about the nature of salvation and "being born again", I would find cause to question in my heart whether these people are truly "born again".

 

[AEON]

No, God doesn't, and I've perfectly explained why this logic doesn't fly in past threads. All the so-called Old Testament prohibitions are mistranslations of archaic idolatrous sexual practices. The mere fact that people believe that they are expanded prohibitions against all same-sex behavior is sheerly out of prejudice.

There's similar (il)logic when it comes to racism. If a black person offends a white racist, then all black people are bad. If a white person offends a white racist, then he's just an isolated bad apple. Likewise, if one same-sex act is described as bad, whether in the context of rape or idolatry and/or prostitution, then the logical fallacy goes that all same-sex acts are prohibited--and, indeed, many medieval and modern translators have allowed their prejudices to mangle the correct translation. However, if one opposite-sex act is described as bad, whether in the context of rape or idolatry and/or prostitution, then it's just an isolated bad act.

(Melon)

Paul is not referring to a "single sex act" - but an ongoing morality issue within the Corinthian church:

(1 Corinthians 6:9-20)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality
12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."

And also, we finally come down to the basic idea that ALL sex (imagined or indulged) outside of marriage is a sin. Since marriage is defined in the Bible as between One Man and One Woman - homosexual sex is automatically considered a sin.

 

[BorderGirl]

I love God. It's His followers I could live without.

Melon

The above demonstrates the same ole same ole divisive opening line bait.
Your love of God but your problem with "His followers" seem symtomatic of an inability to fully embrace your own faults and extend that generosity to everyone else.
Fear not "His followers" but your definition of them. Peace be with you man.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Adultery does hurt someone. It hurts the person being cheated on. That's why it's in the commandments. That's why it's considered so wrong. You have to remember that when two people decide something, the decision makers aren't the only ones being hurt. You just blatantly said that adultery hurts no one, it doesn't violate people's rights. It does.

Hurt feelings do not rate as harm; if they were they we might as well criminalise speech that makes people feel bad.

Nobody has an inalienable right for fidelity in their spouse. Nobody has a right to not get their heart broken by a cheater.

 

[redhotswami]

Hurt feelings do not rate as harm; if they were they we might as well criminalise speech that makes people feel bad.

We do! While there is nothing saying hate speech isn't allowed, sexual harassment is strictly forbidden. And people get in trouble for that.

 

[AEON]

Hurt feelings do not rate as harm; if they were they we might as well criminalise speech that makes people feel bad.

In many ways, hurt feelings are WORSE than physical harm. Anyone who has grown up in a home with verbally abusive parents could certainly testify to this (even if they were not physically beaten). So could anyone who has been betrayed by a dear friend or spouse or has been publically humiliated.

A_W, I usually can see your logic even when I disagree, but you really seem off course here.

 

[BVS]

He doesn't say being left handed or writing left handed is a sin. He does say that acting out homosexual desires is indeed a sin - and I accept everything else God says - so why throw out this one?

There are many things that will remain a mystery to humans. Our finite minds simply cannot comprehend the totality of God’s plan for us. And we are not asked to understand everything. We are asked to surrender our hearts and minds to Jesus Christ, and allow His Spirit to become our logic, our morality, our love, and our character.

Are there other of God's "laws" that don't make sense? And why does it only talk about gay men and not women? Are lesbians fine?

 

[BorderGirl]

Really? Worshipping some piece of wood seems logical to you?

Can you explain?

 

[AEON]

Can you explain?

A carved out totem pole or some earth goddess figurine...i.e. an idol.

Not just wood - but gold, stone, diamond, chocolate...whatever.

 

[INDY500]

Hurt feelings do not rate as harm; if they were they we might as well criminalise speech that makes people feel bad.

Nobody has an inalienable right for fidelity in their spouse. Nobody has a right to not get their heart broken by a cheater.

(Your cheatin' heart will tell on you)
Your cheatin' heart will make you weep
You'll cry and cry and try to sleep
But sleep won't come the whole night through
Your cheatin' heart will tell on you
When tears come down like falling rain
You'll toss around and call my name
You'll walk the floor the wayI do
Your cheatin' heart will tell on you
When tears come down...
Your cheatin' heart will tell on you

You really need to listen to more country music Wanderer. It's all about cheating so it must be hurting someone.

 

[BorderGirl]

A carved out totem pole or some earth goddess figurine...i.e. an idol.

Not just wood - but gold, stone, diamond, chocolate...whatever.

Like give a modern day worse case scenario example.

 

[AEON]

Like give a modern day worse case scenario example.

Idolatry is about worshipping ANYTHING before God. I think the modern worst case scenario is the worshipping of material wealth.
After that, in America, it is probably the ridiculous worship of celebrities.
If you want a specific example of worshipping carved out idols, voodoo comes to mind.

 

[BorderGirl]

After that, in America, it is probably the ridiculous worship of celebrities.
[/QUOTE

Except Bono and U2....right???

 

[martha]

There are many things that will remain a mystery to humans. Our finite minds simply cannot comprehend the totality of God’s plan for us.

This is where you and I completely agree.

I would add that we cannot comprehend His plan for others, either. Which makes their plan and path none of my business.

 

[BorderGirl]

If you want a specific example of worshipping carved out idols, voodoo comes to mind.

Seriously, you do not approve of a statue representing some person you might admire? This is not "worship"; statues in a museum, a church, or in a home somewhere.
I can't comment on voodoo since I'm not a voodoo-ist. (is that a word?)

 

[AEON]

Seriously, you do not approve of a statue representing some person you might admire? This is not "worship"; statues in a museum, a church, or in a home somewhere.
I can't comment on voodoo since I'm not a voodoo-ist. (is that a word?)

There is a difference between representation and worship.

 

[BorderGirl]

There is a difference between representation and worship.

....just checking.

 

[BVS]

So once again, His followers have lost me with all of their inconsistancies...

 

[VintagePunk]

That's a common misconception held by people who don't understand the nature of salvation. When a person becomes a Christian, the Bible tells us that he is "born again". His spirit, which once was dead, is made alive and joined with the Holy Spirit. He becomes a "new creation". His sin nature (that drive/propulsion to sin) is crucified, and is replaced with a new nature, created by Christ. This new nature changes the person'd desires. In his inner man/his perfect spirit, a Christian doesn't "want to" sin. That isn't to say that a Christian doesn't sin, because the flesh and spirit are often at war. However, when I do sin, I am convicted of it by the Holy Spirit. I hate sinning.

Are there people who claim to be Christians that seem to really enjoy sinning, don't care that they're sinning, and appear to use salvation as a license to sin? Yes, there are. But based on what the Bible says about the nature of salvation and "being born again", I would find cause to question in my heart whether these people are truly "born again".

No, I do understand the nature of it, very well.

While your explanation is fine in theory, in practical terms, very few Christians I know of fit these standards and choose to live their lives that way. In fact, I can think of only one offhand. In your life, and in the people you're surrounded by, it may be very different, and those who take part in the sin and repent cycle with little thought given are in the minority.

Does that mean that there are far fewer real Christians? Is it a question of intent, or sincerity?

When non-believers do something wrong, it's also likely for them to struggle with it on a moral, ethical, intra/interpersonal level. Having a conscience is not exclusive to religion.

 

[80sU2isBest]

While your explanation is fine in theory, in practical terms, very few Christians I know of fit these standards and choose to live their lives that way. In fact, I can think of only one offhand. In your life, and in the people you're surrounded by, it may be very different, and those who take part in the sin and repent cycle with little thought given are in the minority.

Vintage Punk, do you surround yourselves with Christians, or do you just spend time with a few? I am surrounded with Christians, and the vast majority of them are very sincere and try to live God's purpose for their lives.

Does that mean that there are far fewer real Christians? Is it a question of intent, or sincerity?

It's a question of whether a person truly believes and commits to Christianity. If the person never truly committed to Christ, it will show in his actions, attitudes and bahavior.

When non-believers do something wrong, it's also likely for them to struggle with it on a moral, ethical, intra/interpersonal level. Having a conscience is not exclusive to religion.

Eveyone has a concience, that's exactly right. However, not everyone has the Hioly Spirit. Christians have the Holy Spirit.

 

[VintagePunk]

Vintage Punk, do you surround yourselves with Christians, or do you just spend time with a few? I am surrounded with Christians, and the vast majority of them are very sincere and try to live God's purpose for their lives.



It's a question of whether a person truly believes and commits to Christianity. If the person never truly committed to Christ, it will show in his actions, attitudes and bahavior.



Eveyone has a concience, that's exactly right. However, not everyone has the Hioly Spirit. Christians have the Holy Spirit.

Actually, I think the vast majority of people I know would identify as Christian, most of my family included. The degree of intensity varies though, from those who are probably just Christian because that's how they were raised, and they've never bothered to question, or think about it very deeply, to full-blow born-again evangelicals.

I agree, that's the distinction I was making, that while religious devotion and belief and listening to your conscience are not mutually exclusive, they can be very separate, two distinctly different things.