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Old 08-26-2003, 02:44 AM   #1
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It's about a powerstruggle

God is in control.

Do you believe God is in control of the Bush Mid-eastern mess?
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Old 08-26-2003, 03:21 AM   #2
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In a word, No.

The God I know of, doesn't support, condone or encourage war for whatever means.

GW Bush, as far as I know, believes this is God's will.

Interesting spin on the topics already discussed so far in this forum Sarah.
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Old 08-26-2003, 06:02 AM   #3
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If He were, don't you think this would have been solved 1000 years ago? People are given free will; we are not puppets. Needless to say, though, our interpretations of "God" and "God's will" is what is fuelling this mess.

I have grown to hate the (un)Holy Land. It's just old dirt, for sake!

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Old 08-26-2003, 10:14 AM   #4
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God is in control. Man is sinful and has freewill. God wins in the end.
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Old 08-26-2003, 01:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

The God I know of, doesn't support, condone or encourage war for whatever means.

Have you ever read much of the Old Testament?

I mean, I know people question the OT's relevance nowadays but....
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Old 08-27-2003, 09:31 AM   #6
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I have to say, that's a no bls. I don't think there'es ever been a bible in my house when I grew up and we don't have one, any one, now. I've read about 3 pages of what I loosely call 'the bible' (it was some Gideon's or something) in a hotel once, but then went swimming and forgot all about it.


So yes, I am naive, I know it. To any religious person, what I believe and think would seem terribly ignorant, and perhaps it is. I've heard from many how the OT is like what you're getting at, but as it all comes down to faith then perhaps some interpretations aren't necessarily correct? I dont think this is making any sense, lol. I guess basically, just because we interpret something one way, doesn't mean its the right way.
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Old 08-27-2003, 04:52 PM   #7
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Sure... And GWB is his prophet
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Old 08-27-2003, 06:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
our interpretations of "God" and "God's will" is what is fuelling this mess.



Exactly.
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Old 08-30-2003, 01:02 PM   #9
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In my book a big part of this problem is a lack of knowledge and understanding of Arab/Islamic culture in the West. We just barged into Iraq not knowing enough about their traditional culture and values and just assumed they would take to a secular government, for example, which really is not the Islamic thing to do. Of course that's what Saddam did but good grief did we want to re-create his government? Of course not. If we're not prepared to accept or respect their views on religion and politics we can't expect for them to respect us. I think everyone in the West, and not just the U.S. needs to read at least one good book about Islam. Most likely such a book is in your local library. This stuff really isn't about God's will, or whose side God is on. I don't think God takes sides in wars. There's a "culture gap" that's causing problems.
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Old 08-30-2003, 06:44 PM   #10
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Some of this is factional politics. There is a power struggle for the leadership of the country's Shi'ite Moslem majority. There are Sunni Wahhabists who have joined up with Saddam loyalists in Iraq, according to sources in Iraq. It's one mess. I don't know how anyone is supposed to clean this up. I'm not sure the U.S. has it within our power to stop this bloodshed and mayhem. They're going to fight it out. Scary stuff.
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Old 08-30-2003, 07:46 PM   #11
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Arab culture is, what I would call, similar to a point around A.D. 500 where "St." John Chrysostom (I think the man is evil, so I dare not really call him a "saint") ordered the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria, Egypt, destroying with it the greatest body of non-Christian literature up to its point.

Needless to say, that moment is, in some circles, considered the beginning of the Dark Ages, where education was limited to those in Christian monasteries. Right now, Arab culture is in a similar stage---busy destroying whatever remnants of secular culture it has left, and a far cry from its own position 1000 years ago, when it was an intellectual and architectural innovator.

Maybe if they blow themselves up enough, they'll all be dead, and we no longer will have to worry about these fanatical crackpots.

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Old 09-12-2003, 04:52 PM   #12
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God is always in control. have faith in Him not in men.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
God is always in control. have faith in Him not in men.
If god is in control, he is screwing up royally.

He gave us control and the ability to choose bewteen good and evil.

We must have faith in humanity and it's ability to choose good, to choose forgiveness over revenge. If we do not, we mock everything that god has made.
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Old 09-14-2003, 12:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
We must have faith in humanity and it's ability to choose good, to choose forgiveness over revenge. If we do not, we mock everything that god has made.
Between God and humanity, I choose God.
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Old 09-14-2003, 01:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Between God and humanity, I choose God.
But what on earth does that mean?

Again:

We must have faith in humanity and it's ability to choose good, to choose forgiveness over revenge. If we do not, we mock everything that god has made.
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Old 09-14-2003, 04:18 PM   #16
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And what on earth is faith in humanity? Sinners, as we are, have the ability to choose good, but will ultimately always choose what is in our self interest.
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Old 09-14-2003, 05:44 PM   #17
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nbcrusader, you're smart enough to know not everybody shares the view that all of us are "sinners" - how many religions don't even have a definition of "sin" - and furthermore, not everybody shares the view that we're all selfserving first.
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Old 09-14-2003, 08:37 PM   #18
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Yes, I am well aware of this. People tend to do what is right in their own eyes.

And you and iacrobat are smart enough to know that not everyone shares the worldview that humanity can make itself better all on its own.
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Old 09-15-2003, 02:14 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

And what on earth is faith in humanity? Sinners, as we are, have the ability to choose good, but will ultimately always choose what is in our self interest.
I don't share the view that we will always choose "self interest." I believe this is a systemic problem of capitalism and has nothing to do with christianity. To say humanity will always be self interested is very limiting. It disallows the possibility of making something better.

Faith in humanity= believing and living in a way that expresses that we are made in God's image and that we are endowed with all that is good about God. And through this we can create a better, more just world.

What I don't like is the idea that we are in a position where we must choose between God and Humanity. This is another expression of the dualism between body and soul, spirit and flesh, heaven and earth. While all things "spiritual" are exalted, all things physical are demonised and devalued. God did see that what he made is good. I don't like this language of dualism and choice. I think it does mock God's creation.


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Yes, I am well aware of this. People tend to do what is right in their own eyes.

And you and iacrobat are smart enough to know that not everyone shares the worldview that humanity can make itself better all on its own.
I don't think what I am saying means that we are on our own. This "faith in humanity" that I am talking about is faith in God I think. He gave us the ability to choose, he gave us his qualities of love, justice, mercy and forgivness. This tells me he thinks that we can choose what is right. He has faith in us.

Dualistic language and talk of choice is can be escapist.
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