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Old 06-28-2002, 11:49 AM   #141
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what the hell is in the water over there?

Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth


But from a purely political point of view, 11-9 was the best that could ever happen to him.


with statements like that (which suck) I believe you should STAND DOWN on the issue.

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Old 06-28-2002, 12:11 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
Stand down on what? Stand down on analogy's which I believe are valid? Stand down when I criticize Bush' foreign policy? Do you think I only have the right to criticize the US government if I agree to your little A and B? Do you actually think I spelled 'criticize' correctly?

The only thing I ever said about a Bush/Hitler parallel was that they both unified their countries by focussing on a common enemy, gaining a lot of popularity in the process. No matter how many differences between Bush and Hitler you point out, it doesn't make my initial statement less true (les true??)
I don't know what you're getting at about spelling "criticize" or "less," and I honestly don't care.

You DID say more than "they both unified their countries by focussing on a common enemy, gaining a lot of popularity in the process."

Need I remind you?

"Bush is playing the propaganda thing just like Hitler did."

Now, if I remember my history studies, Hitler ORCHESTRATED events to assume power and led Germany into STARTING a war by invading Poland.

Saying that Bush is essentially "pulling a Hitler" is to suggest that Bush either knew about 9/11 OR is using it to attack people who had nothing to do with it.

THAT comment in particular should be recanted or defended. Back down from that comment, or start backing it up.
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Old 06-28-2002, 03:15 PM   #143
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At the end of the day..
My hope and prayer is THAT,

People like-
Dr Teeth
Mr Someone
Dr.Who
Elvis
Salome , Melon -
and others will appreciate the situation are President is in.. and admit that-

He didnt manufacture it.
He didn't 'hope' for it.
He isnt trying to "MILK IT" at the expense of innocent lives..or Polictical gain
and that-
THE POLLS indicate he is doing a DECENT job re under these conditions...
Thats all.

Thanks-
and
Peace-
Diamond
Remember this ISNT Disneyland anymore and a safer world has its expenses.
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Old 06-28-2002, 05:42 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
At the end of the day..
My hope and prayer is THAT,

People like-
Dr Teeth
Mr Someone
Dr.Who
Elvis
Salome , Melon -
and others will appreciate the situation are President is in.. and admit that-
I hope that at the end of the day I will be left allone
without people who pretend to know what it is I am thinking/appreciating
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Old 06-28-2002, 09:37 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
What I'm saying is this: we may be envied and hated because of our freedom, our prosperity, and our role as the leader of the free world - and the cutting edge of the global politics and culture. If that IS the case (and I think it is), shying away from our position may not be the way to go.
I would have to disagree with the idea that we are hated simply because of our values of personal freedom. I think it simply isn't that ideological. It comes down to the fact that they see us as forcing our Western values onto their Muslim/Eastern values. They see that we are exploiting their trust to make us richer, while giving them little to no pieces of the pie. We go there and build factories to make our products as cheaply as possible, while paying them very little for their labor. They get sucked in by promises of prosperity and growth that never come to be. As long as our riches are based on their work, that's just the way its going to be. If we don't go there with an attitude to help them truly improve their lives, they will never see us as their friends, only as their cunning enemies.

We're also not winning many friends by so fervently supporting Israel. I'm not saying that I think Israel should be reclaimed, but Palestinians and other Muslims probably are not too happy about their land being taken from under their feet like that. They see it as an invasion of their territory, backed by us. Israel uses American weapons, and political support here is for them. Logically, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.

If we turn this into a simply ideological war, we risk turning this battle into the new Crusades. We have to recognize that there are concrete reasons why they hate us, and take steps to change they way we look at their cultures, as well as change they way they look at us. Only then can we even hope to end terrorism.
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Old 06-29-2002, 12:51 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern
I would have to disagree with the idea that we are hated simply because of our values of personal freedom. I think it simply isn't that ideological. It comes down to the fact that they see us as forcing our Western values onto their Muslim/Eastern values. They see that we are exploiting their trust to make us richer, while giving them little to no pieces of the pie. We go there and build factories to make our products as cheaply as possible, while paying them very little for their labor. They get sucked in by promises of prosperity and growth that never come to be. As long as our riches are based on their work, that's just the way its going to be. If we don't go there with an attitude to help them truly improve their lives, they will never see us as their friends, only as their cunning enemies.
While I agree that the clash may be more than idealogical, I still don't believe that it means we're necessarily wrong; nor do I buy the poverty argument - given that so many of the terrorists (bin Ladin, his Saudi supporters) are/were filthy rich.

Quote:
We're also not winning many friends by so fervently supporting Israel. I'm not saying that I think Israel should be reclaimed, but Palestinians and other Muslims probably are not too happy about their land being taken from under their feet like that. They see it as an invasion of their territory, backed by us. Israel uses American weapons, and political support here is for them. Logically, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.
Again, this may be true, but it may be the RIGHT thing to defend Israel, the only democracy in the Mideast (and I believe it is the right thing to do).

Quote:
If we turn this into a simply ideological war, we risk turning this battle into the new Crusades. We have to recognize that there are concrete reasons why they hate us, and take steps to change they way we look at their cultures, as well as change they way they look at us. Only then can we even hope to end terrorism.
In the first case, we must recall the the Crusades were partially caused when Muslims invaded Europe.

Beyond that, I'm not sure that changing the way each culture looks at each other will work. We certainly didn't take that road against Nazi Germany or the Japanese Empire, and it make not work here.

Though the WWII comparison may prove instructive: rather than our perspective of their culture, it was the enemy's culture itself that changed. That may be necessary here - particularly their inherent hatred of Jews and other non-Muslims. Changing the way they look at us (in this case, as humans that deserve to live on this planet as much as them) may result in a change of culture.

Hope I wasn't too incoherent...
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Old 06-29-2002, 01:09 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern



We're also not winning many friends by so fervently supporting Israel. I'm not saying that I think Israel should be reclaimed, but Palestinians and other Muslims probably are not too happy about their land being taken from under their feet like that. They see it as an invasion of their territory, backed by us. Israel uses American weapons, and political support here is for them. Logically, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.

Israel has often been referred to as "GOD's chosen people", not Allah's.

Big difference in the way some people selflessly die for GOD and others kill "in the name of Allah"
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Old 06-29-2002, 03:25 AM   #148
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My brother who I love..little Foxxren..

Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern


I would have to disagree with the idea that we are hated simply because of our values of personal freedom. I think it simply isn't that ideological. It comes down to the fact that they see us as forcing our Western values onto their Muslim/Eastern values. They see that we are exploiting their trust to make us richer, while giving them little to no pieces of the pie. We go there and build factories to make our products as cheaply as possible, while paying them very little for their labor. They get sucked in by promises of prosperity and growth that never come to be. As long as our riches are based on their work, that's just the way its going to be. If we don't go there with an attitude to help them truly improve their lives, they will never see us as their friends, only as their cunning enemies.

We're also not winning many friends by so fervently supporting Israel. I'm not saying that I think Israel should be reclaimed, but Palestinians and other Muslims probably are not too happy about their land being taken from under their feet like that. They see it as an invasion of their territory, backed by us. Israel uses American weapons, and political support here is for them. Logically, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.

If we turn this into a simply ideological war, we risk turning this battle into the new Crusades. We have to recognize that there are concrete reasons why they hate us, and take steps to change they way we look at their cultures, as well as change they way they look at us. Only then can we even hope to end terrorism.
Listen my little brother-
This is the mindset of today. It is inaccurate..Envy is what the others are about..
Plez dont buy into it.
Listen to Bubba and Spyplane.


Your
Friend-
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Old 07-01-2002, 02:04 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba


I don't know what you're getting at about spelling "criticize" or "less," and I honestly don't care.

You DID say more than "they both unified their countries by focussing on a common enemy, gaining a lot of popularity in the process."

Need I remind you?

"Bush is playing the propaganda thing just like Hitler did."

Now, if I remember my history studies, Hitler ORCHESTRATED events to assume power and led Germany into STARTING a war by invading Poland.

Saying that Bush is essentially "pulling a Hitler" is to suggest that Bush either knew about 9/11 OR is using it to attack people who had nothing to do with it.

THAT comment in particular should be recanted or defended. Back down from that comment, or start backing it up.
I think I finally see where you're coming from Bubba. You thought I meant that Bush is doing a 100% copy of what Hitler did? That wasn't what I meant at all. I was only using it as an introduction to my next sentence: "Hitler gained popularity by focussing on a common enemy (especially on the jews) and giving the Germans a sense of unity".

Didn't everything I wrote after the sentence "Bush is playing the propaganda thing just like Hitler did." didn't provide you with enough clues to understand my point of view?
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Old 07-01-2002, 08:10 PM   #150
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My thoughts?

-- Reagan-era deregulation has rendered government ineffective, with business increasingly taking over most essential functions. I await about fifty years for the military to be privatized, after all other government functions have been privatized to prop up the otherwise stagnant stock market. First up: Medicare and Social Security to be dumped into the stock market.

-- Presidents themselves are not that powerful by design. Credit for efficient government must be properly credited to all the arms of government; and the only thing "efficient" about this administration has been its virtually bloodless (re: American soldiers) invasion of Afghanistan. Expect a whole series of diversion legislation, including wars and uproar over the wholly symbolic Pledge of Allegiance that I think most of us don't recite after high school anyway. Expect an invasion of Iraq around election time this year.

-- The economy itself was not even healthy in the Clinton era. Our "prosperity" was the result of venture capitalism on an unprofitable new industry of dot-coms, supported by periodic infusion of 401 K funds and crooked accounting schemes to placate investor confidence. The only real solution, raising wages, is the one thing conservative think-tanks refuse to consider, blaming everything on "high taxes"; despite the fact that Bush's bank-breaking tax cut has done nothing to prop up the economy, as expected by liberal think-tanks. The rich have abandoned the stock market for now, instead pouring into secure real estate investments.

-- On bin Laden: he's a Saudi multimillionaire with issues against the Saudi imperial government, which is propped up by the United States. He just uses anti-Western, anti-Semitic Islamic fanaticism as an easy way to gain support for the means to his end. Ignorance only begets more ignorance. He's also very sick (kidney failure, coupled with a form of osteoporosis), and will die soon, if he hasn't already died.

-- The key to ending terrorism? Education and stable secular governments. Neither is in the Bush Administration's agenda, as we're having enough trouble separating Christian fanaticism from our own domestic agendas.

-- No one's interested in the truth; only a romanticized bloody film, with a fuzzy, unsubstanced, sappy ending worthy of Jerry Bruckheimer.

Melon
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Old 07-01-2002, 08:10 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
I think I finally see where you're coming from Bubba. You thought I meant that Bush is doing a 100% copy of what Hitler did? That wasn't what I meant at all. I was only using it as an introduction to my next sentence: "Hitler gained popularity by focussing on a common enemy (especially on the jews) and giving the Germans a sense of unity".

Didn't everything I wrote after the sentence "Bush is playing the propaganda thing just like Hitler did." didn't provide you with enough clues to understand my point of view?
Well, I now see what you're saying, and I agree that what you say is technically true, but it's still a very emotionally loaded observation.

It's close, I think, to saying something like "Bush is acting just like Hitler" in that Hitler got up every morning and had breakfast, and Bush gets up every morning and has breakfast. So do MOST people, so raising the spectre of Hitler seems inappropriate.

Yes, Bush may be gaining popularity by focusing on a common enemy and giving the nation a sense of unity. Yes, Hitler did the same thing. But so has almost EVERY other successful political leader in a time of a military crisis.

What Hitler did that was quite uncommon is that he focused on a common enemy and created a sense of unity IN ORDER to gain popularity; increased popularity was the intended goal, not just a secondary consequence. Further, Hitler likely arranged many of the crises (the burning of the Reichstag, specifically) to have the opportunity to create a common enemy to focus on.

To say that Bush is like Hitler in these respects is to suggest that either the response to 9/11 was cynically driven by poll numbers, or that 9/11 was planned or at least allowed by the White House. Both of those claims are serious enough to require a heavy burden of proof which has, thus far, NOT been met.

And to say that Bush is like Hitler in the way he's like almost every other successful political leader begs the question, why single out the comparison to Hitler?
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Old 07-01-2002, 08:18 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
My thoughts?

-- No one's interested in the truth; only a romanticized bloody film, with a fuzzy, unsubstanced, sappy ending worthy of Jerry Bruckheimer.

Melon
Melon
I have been meaning to talk to you today after the big announcement.

Would you consider moving to my town of Norman, Oklahoma (home of OU Sooners, Congressman J.C. Watts, and the flight school where Zacharrius Mossaui got his training) and running for J.C. Watts' seat once he steps down. I can use my military background to help run your campaign, propping you as the militant that can relate to the needs of Oklahoma.

Please Melon, the Republican party needs your vision.
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:38 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by Like someone to blame
diamond:

you are right...that was a cute little quote z edge pulled out of his butt...

is this not a personal attack??
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:39 PM   #154
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z edge: Your particiaption in this thread is no longer needed...you have nothing of intellect to offer on this subject...maybe you should simply stick to participating in those "poll" forums...they don't require much thought. Goodbye.
another personal attack by someone
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Old 07-16-2002, 05:03 PM   #155
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ZEdge is ok.
GW=Mr Someones 8 yr nightmare

Z you need to put yourself in Mr Someone's shoes
Its gotta b tough on the little fellow

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Old 07-17-2002, 01:34 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
ZEdge is ok.
GW=Mr Someones 8 yr nightmare

Z you need to put yourself in Mr Someone's shoes
Its gotta b tough on the little fellow

DB9
Could you translate that for me please. My english is not that good.
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Old 07-17-2002, 08:21 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono


Could you translate that for me please. My english is not that good.
Rono,
You are funny.
Here is your translation-

Mr Someone to Blame is a Democrat. He does NOT like GW Bush
ZEdge and I are Republicans. We like President Bush

I told Mr ZEdge to please try and emphathize w/Mr Someone.

There is a good chance that GW Bush will be reelected thereby making him stay in office for a total of 8 yrs..a very long time

Hope this helps.
Read you
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Old 07-17-2002, 08:51 AM   #158
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diamond:

As long as the stock market continues to tank, corporate scandal's are the norm and not the exception, the economy sputters along, and our civil liberties threatened GW's chances of getting re-elected diminish by the day. Latest poll has his approval ratings down 16%...this will continue right up until election night '04.

I didn't want you filling Rono's head with grand illusions!

Rob
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Old 07-17-2002, 10:18 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by Like someone to blame
diamond:

As long as the stock market continues to tank, corporate scandal's are the norm and not the exception, the economy sputters along, and our civil liberties threatened GW's chances of getting re-elected diminish by the day. Latest poll has his approval ratings down 16%...this will continue right up until election night '04.

I didn't want you filling Rono's head with grand illusions!

Rob
Corporate Scandals are the exception.. not the norm..

The Economy is Doing Extremely Well.. Johnson and Johnson Just reported an Earnings 16 % ( I think) Higher than last quarter...

________________________________
Poll Shows Bush's Ratings Weathering Business Scandals
By Richard Morin and Claudia Deane
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, July 17, 2002; Page A01

The recent barrage of congressional and media criticism directed at President Bush for his handling of the widening corporate financial scandal has failed to damage his popularity, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll.

The survey found that Bush's job approval rating stands at 72 percent, virtually unchanged from a month ago. An equally large proportion of people still view the president as honest and trustworthy, despite recent news accounts that he benefited as a business executive from some of the same practices he now publicly criticizes.

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I didn't want you insulting your own intelligence by believing faulty facts or convoluted opinions.

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Old 07-17-2002, 10:52 AM   #160
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Lemonite-
I disagree.
The economy sucks right now.
Sure intersts rates are low and yadie yadie BUT it seems everyone is strapped.

In spite of this GWs Bushs rating are still robust.
Take heed
Little Geo will score in 04!
Rob-I prefer Diet Coke w a twist of LeMOOOON'
thank you

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