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Old 06-25-2002, 06:09 PM   #21
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Bush, Sr. also had high approval ratings as well around the Gulf War. People, ultimately, are fickle, but, currently, I think his approval has to do with terrorism concerns more than anything.

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Old 06-25-2002, 06:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth


Is Blair to Bush what Mussolini was to Hitler?


I just love how some people outside America love to make these bold proclamations, your media must be doing a fine job if your opinion of Bush is near that of Hitler.

Of course, jealousy twists perception admittedly.
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Old 06-25-2002, 06:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
I'll take a guess
Clinton would have realised that his popularity would go through the roof by bombing just about anything that one could possible bomb out there and do just so
Thats just an ongoing arrogant attitude and I am really disgusted by it. As a government civilian for the air force and a former soldier of the army, I am sick and fucking tired of being portrayed as "reckless cowboys, war-mongering, bombastic", or whatever else you want to throw up there.

Just because your country doesn't do a DAMNED thing to help others out besides themselves (i.e. humanitarian missions, peace-keeping missions, liberation) doesn't mean you have to keep this agenda of yours up where every time Bush or Americans our own pride in our country is mentioned your response is snide if not scathing.
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Old 06-25-2002, 07:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Bush, Sr. also had high approval ratings as well around the Gulf War. People, ultimately, are fickle, but, currently, I think his approval has to do with terrorism concerns more than anything.

Melon
I think at the end of the day THAT-
-Bush will be reelected..
-he WONT make the same mistakes as his Pappy..he has a better "machine"..(handlers/advisors)
-he comes across more real and compassionate then his dad.-ask Bono.

Melon is partially right.
His character overshadows the terrorists' characters while you were always wondering about his(GW's) predessesor's character( Clinton)..which diminished his ability to lead in a war time situation.

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Old 06-25-2002, 08:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Melon is partially right.
His character overshadows the terrorists' characters while you were always wondering about his(GW's) predessesor's character( Clinton)..which diminished his ability to lead in a war time situation.

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The only time Clinton ever launched an attack was to distract our attention while he zipped up his pants
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Old 06-25-2002, 08:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


Thats just an ongoing arrogant attitude and I am really disgusted by it. As a government civilian for the air force and a former soldier of the army, I am sick and fucking tired of being portrayed as "reckless cowboys, war-mongering, bombastic", or whatever else you want to throw up there.

Just because your country doesn't do a DAMNED thing to help others out besides themselves (i.e. humanitarian missions, peace-keeping missions, liberation) doesn't mean you have to keep this agenda of yours up where every time Bush or Americans our own pride in our country is mentioned your response is snide if not scathing.
I haven't much entered this foray of discussion because I mean... we can't really burst's these people's idealistic bubbles.. that'd be discriminatory.. But now my pride for my country has bubbled over.. mostly because I'm watching American Idol, and feeling kinda abashed at the poor display of performers, that I must pull out one of the givens.. one of the known great things abouto ur country.. and with that..

Z..You know.. this is exactly right.. We've said it before on this forum...

Europeans have called our statements BS.. that 'They know how to do things' (Diplomacy.. or Bending over.. take your pick).. but things like the latest sweeping wave of antisemitism in Europe.. It's labeled as 'being sympathetic to these poor suffering palestinians', but let's get serious here.. these 'poor people' want to kill every Israeli..

I've also made this statement before.. America and its military is what is keeping democracy.. representative government, and well shit.. Freedom alive in this world.. If we were to go down.. There isn't a damn thing anyone would be able to do to stop whoever knocked us and any other evil groups from controlling the whole world.. I got laughed at the last time i said that, but It's the truth.. anyone that denies it is out of touch.

I mean.. take Z Edge's point.. all these humanitarian missions.. Everything revolves around us taking part in it.. Kyoto.. it's worthless unless we sign it.. (Though Canada and Australia have not signed it either..).. Bono's Debt Relief.. Who's wallet is Bono trying to open?.. OURS.. not Britains, or hell.. China's..

To get back to what Z Edge was saying about people knocking us.. Be thankful you have these "reckless cowboys, war-mongering, bombastic" AssHoles taking out the governments that would like nothing better than to end your life.

A little emotional.. or maybe just Angered at how bad American Idol really is... The last giirl just sang 'Save the Best for Last'.. Come on.. I mean.. that song kept Joe Public's Live and Learn from reaching number one.. it should be banned from any public performances jsut for that..


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Old 06-25-2002, 08:30 PM   #27
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I wouldn't call Bush the next Winston Churchill.

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Old 06-25-2002, 08:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite


I've also made this statement before.. America and its military is what is keeping democracy.. representative government, and well shit.. Freedom alive in this world.. If we were to go down.. There isn't a damn thing anyone would be able to do to stop whoever knocked us and any other evil groups from controlling the whole world.. I got laughed at the last time i said that, but It's the truth.. anyone that denies it is out of touch.
Exactly, and perhaps this very thought is what brings these "out of touch folks" to their level of disdain for us through jealousy of their own neglect.

Quote:
I mean.. take Z Edge's point.. all these humanitarian missions.. Everything revolves around us taking part in it.. Kyoto.. it's worthless unless we sign it.. (Though Canada and Australia have not signed it either..).. Bono's Debt Relief.. Who's wallet is Bono trying to open?.. OURS.. not Britains, or hell.. China's..
sounds familiar

Quote:
To get back to what Z Edge was saying about people knocking us.. Be thankful you have these "reckless cowboys, war-mongering, bombastic" AssHoles taking out the governments that would like nothing better than to end your life.
You just nailed it.

OF course the laughing can start now. Perhaps we should all just burn our history books and smoke dope until the camp fire itself sings peaceful songs of peace, harmony, and flowers. Then we can import the terrorists into a flight schools all over the world.
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Old 06-25-2002, 08:56 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge

Perhaps we should all just burn our history books and smoke dope until the camp fire itself sings peaceful songs of peace, harmony, and flowers.
With all those forests the environmental crazies are protecting that are going up in smoke ..you can probably light up there.. right next to the last dying Snow Owl.

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Old 06-25-2002, 09:23 PM   #30
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June 25, 2002

The Reality Thing

By PAUL KRUGMAN


You can say this about the Bush administration: where others might see problems, it sees opportunities.
A slump in the economy was an opportunity to push a tax cut that provided very little stimulus in the short run, but will place huge demands on the budget in 2010. An electricity shortage in California was an opportunity to push for drilling in Alaska, which would have produced no electricity and hardly any oil until 2013 or so. An attack by lightly armed terrorist infiltrators was an opportunity to push for lots of heavy weapons and a missile defense system, just in case Al Qaeda makes a frontal assault with tank divisions or fires an ICBM next time.

President George H. W. Bush once confessed that he was somewhat lacking in the "vision thing." His son's advisers don't have that problem: they have a powerful vision for America's future. In that future, we have recently learned, the occupant of the White House will have the right to imprison indefinitely anyone he chooses, including U.S. citizens, without any judicial process or review. But they are rather less interested in the reality thing.

For the distinctive feature of all the programs the administration has pushed in response to real problems is that they do little or nothing to address those problems. Problems are there to be used to pursue the vision. And a problem that won't serve that purpose, whether it's the collapse of confidence in corporate governance or the chaos in the Middle East, is treated as an annoyance to be ignored if possible, or at best addressed with purely cosmetic measures. Clearly, George W. Bush's people believe that real-world problems will solve themselves, or at least won't make the evening news, because by pure coincidence they will be pre-empted by terror alerts.

But real problems, if not dealt with, have a way of festering. In the last few weeks, a whole series of problems seem to have come to a head. Yesterday's speech notwithstanding, Middle East policy is obviously adrift. The dollar and the stock market are plunging, threatening an already shaky economic recovery. Amtrak has been pushed to the edge of shutdown, because it couldn't get the administration's attention. And the federal government itself is about to run out of money, because House Republicans are unwilling to face reality and increase the federal debt limit. (This avoidance thing seems to be contagious.)

So now would be a good time to do what the White House always urges its critics to do put partisanship aside. Will Mr. Bush be willing to set aside, even for a day or two, his drive to consolidate his political base, and actually do something that wasn't part of his preconceived agenda? Oh, never mind.

I think that most commentators missed the point of the story about Mr. Bush's commencement speech at Ohio State, the one his aide said drew on the thinking of Emily Dickinson, Pope John Paul II, Aristotle and Cicero, among others. Of course the aide's remarks were silly but they gave us an indication of the level of sycophancy that Mr. Bush apparently believes to be his due. Next thing you know we'll be told that Mr. Bush is also a master calligrapher, and routinely swims across the Yangtze River. And nobody will dare laugh: just before Mr. Bush gave his actual, Aristotle-free speech, students at Ohio State were threatened with expulsion and arrest if they heckled him.

It's interesting to note that the planned Department of Homeland Security, while of dubious effectiveness in its announced purpose, will be protected against future Colleen Rowleys: the new department will be exempted from both whistle-blower protection and the Freedom of Information Act.

But back to the festering problems: on the economic side, this is starting to look like the most dangerous patch for the nation and the world since the summer of 1998. Back then, luckily, our economic policy was run by smart people who were prepared to learn from their mistakes. Can you say the same about this administration?
As I've noted before, the Bush administration has an infallibility complex: it never, ever, admits making a mistake. And that kind of arrogance tends, eventually, to bring disaster. You can read all about it in Aristotle.
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Old 06-25-2002, 09:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
I'll take a guess
Clinton would have realised that his popularity would go through the roof by bombing just about anything that one could possible bomb out there and do just so

This is by far the most idiotic thing I've ever read.


If the 9/11 attacks had been carried out against your country you'd understand the need for action.


Standing down in the face of evil due to cowardess is just as bad and conceding to it. You dont' seem to understand Salome....you can't negotiate with terrorists who do not value their own lives.


If you looking for a reason to slam the US.....find another one salome...this one has been done before ( please paste sound of beating of dead horse). You seem to love to bash the US....but you never seem to come up with any alternatives to what the US is doing in the war on terror....why is that???


and if your going to talk big do yourself a favor...get a nick that's a little more masculine. Salome..is a girls name
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Old 06-25-2002, 09:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
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You are insulting Winston Churchill just by mentioning him in the same sentence as GW Bush. Please point out the parrallels between these two men. I am curious.
Churchill had to clean up the mess made by his predecessor, a predecessor who did very little to effectively counter the ever-growing threats of a madman, and Churchill did so not by doing the easiest thing, but by doing the RIGHT thing.

"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!"

"Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us. Our nation -- this generation -- will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail."

Parallels between Bush and Churchill? I must be INSANE.

So go ahead, everyone. Let's keep comparing Bush to Hitler. The comparisons are so close. I mean, Bush is such a fascist, appointing a CHRISTIAN (gasp!) to become Attorney General and detaining American citizens who have done nothing more than align themselves with our enemy - an enemy that killed over 3,000 civilians by ramming hijacked passenger jets into office buildings.

Oh, and BUSH supports ISRAEL! How NAZI is that! 'Cause, y'know, when I think of the Fuhrer, I think "Zionist."

Unbe-fucking-lievable.
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Old 06-26-2002, 12:41 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


Thats just an ongoing arrogant attitude and I am really disgusted by it. As a government civilian for the air force and a former soldier of the army, I am sick and fucking tired of being portrayed as "reckless cowboys, war-mongering, bombastic", or whatever else you want to throw up there.
ummm, I don't think I described reckless cowboys etc etc
I think Clinton would have bombed just about anything just as Bush Jr did
and a very important reason to do this is not because they have any idea what exactly they are bombing but because (the majority of) the US citizens expects their president to react this way

not only the US citizens feel this way, people all over the world feel this way
personally I don't see that much wrong with the US doing that
we can talk about it all day and night but you are the only world power left
if the US doesn't react to these kinds of things nobody will

but it's good to see my post being judged as typical blind hatred towards the US
it helps me to understand how elaborate my posts should be over here to prevent people to jumping to conclusions already formed in their mind before I even post anything

(thanks for also adding a little abuse towards my country
a country you clearly know near to nothing about
I knew you'd understand)
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Old 06-26-2002, 02:20 AM   #34
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Slomey, I was just about to say something similar. I guessed from your 1st post you were referring to the bombing. Not America, not the specific prez etc etc.
In the same vein, I sincerely doubt Dr Teeth was comparing Bush TO Hitler, more comparing the relationship that Bush has with Blair to that of Mussolini/Hitler. Different things. No one is accusing your prez of being Hitler like.

And lets stop the Europe bashing. If we cant, then no one complain the next time someone raises a doubt about America. Its the same thing kids.
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Old 06-26-2002, 06:16 AM   #35
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I see this thread has degenerated. Am I ultimately surprised?

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Old 06-26-2002, 09:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I see this thread has degenerated
read-re-read-post is the lesson.
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Old 06-26-2002, 09:15 AM   #37
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it's degenarated because someone seems to think that the US is a bunch of war mongering barbarians who look for oppurtunities to kill people for no reason.
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Old 06-26-2002, 09:21 AM   #38
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thank you Arun
you make me feel special
even though you obviously don't even read my posts

but hey
as long as we are all having fun
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Old 06-26-2002, 09:27 AM   #39
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Quote:
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it's degenarated because someone seems to think that the US is a bunch of war mongering barbarians who look for oppurtunities to kill people for no reason.
that's not what he said.

Quote:
salome:
Clinton would have realised that his popularity would go through the roof by bombing just about anything that one could possible bomb out there and do just so
[paraphrase]clinton recognizes american people want action on this(and it would thus consequently help his popularity rating) so he took action by bombing the host nation of the suspected terrorist group.[/paraphrase]

Quote:
Arun:
If the 9/11 attacks had been carried out against your country you'd understand the need for action.
[paraphrase]well that's what salome said isn't it? he just framed it within a prez's popularity rating rising.[/paraphrase]

Quote:
Arun:
war mongering barbarians who look for oppurtunities to kill people for no reason.
Quote:
Z edge:
reckless cowboys, war-mongering, bombastic
which thread are you guys reading? i don't see either of those statements in salomes post, either in evident or inferential form.
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Old 06-26-2002, 09:33 AM   #40
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I think Salome may have been taken out of context. Are you guys sure that you're not just uber-sensitive and starting to see insinuations where they don't exist?
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