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Old 12-01-2001, 09:02 PM   #1
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Israel bombings

Did anybody see what has been happening in Israel lately? I'm pretty unfamiliar with what has gone on over there and what is going on as far as how the countries relate to each other. Could someone explain to me some of the fundamental details please? Thank you.

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Old 12-01-2001, 11:18 PM   #2
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Basically...

Both the Palestinians and the Jews think that the land belong to them.

Palestinians are pissed because there is a Jewish state on "their land."

They have been fighting over it ever since Israel was created after WWII.

I'm sure there are others who would like to add more.

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Old 12-01-2001, 11:33 PM   #3
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i'm no expert, someone will need to clarify. here's what i understand:

following WWII, many european jews felt displaced in their native countries. they wanted a place to belong. naturally, many started immigrating back to the homeland of judaism, jerusalem. at the time jerusalem was a city (maybe the capital?) of palestine, a muslim country. slowly, the jews began moving into palestine and re-claiming their heritage. naturally, this pissed off the muslims living there who felt it was both an invasion of their homeland and an anti-islamic movement. the muslims and the jews began fighting. in an effort to settle the situation (because the world was obviously very sick of war) the world powers created Israel as a new country, with jerusalem as it's capital. Israel was now what had once been Palestine, and it was a jewish country. many former palestinians left Israel for other muslim nations. many settled in refugee camps along the gaza strip.

basically, the muslims and the jews both want the area that is presently called Isreal.

it's hard to choose a side (especially if you're a christian.) i feel bad for the palestinians because their country was overrun and they no longer "belong" anywhere. jerusalem is the capital of the world's three major religions and the muslims have a right to it as much as anybody.

i also feel bad for the Israelies. they jewish people seemed to have suffered more then any other ethnic group in history. i think they, too, deserve a place to "belong." also, they live daily with a fear of muslim jihad fighters who do horrible things like they did today in that mall, killing 10 people.

i often feel i'm siding with the israelies. as a christian american my heritage is closer associated to judiasim then islam. but, i have nothing personally against muslims and am against islamic discrimination.

the whole situation is one tough cookie.

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Old 12-02-2001, 10:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by madonna's child:

i often feel i'm siding with the israelies. as a christian american my heritage is closer associated to judiasim then islam. but, i have nothing personally against muslims and am against islamic discrimination.
Actually, if you want to compare religions, Christians are not more closely associated with Jews. Christians have much more common with Muslims, because Muslims give recognition to Jesus (albeit as the 2nd last prophet), whereas Jews do not assign him any elevated status. It is this issue, which turned into the ugly suggestion of "deicide", which has played an intrinsic role in Christian directed anti-Semitism throughout the ages.
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Old 12-02-2001, 11:12 AM   #5
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anitram, i don't mean the basis of the religions themselves, i mean the history of the people. most american christians and most american jews trace their heritage to europe. for instance, i am a german catholic american but there are many german jewish americans. you'd be hard pressed to find a german muslim american, unless their family immigrated to germany before america. because most jews and christians come from europe, our history is more closely related. the majority of muslims trace their heritage to the middle east. middle eastern history is very different from european history, with the exception of the crusades and trade routes. am i even making sense? ... my basic point is christians and jews feel more closely connected not because of their basis of religion but because their histories intertwine more closely then with muslims.

i agree with you that christianity and islam are more closely related as religions because of jesus christ.


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Old 12-02-2001, 04:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by madonna's child:
am i even making sense? ... my basic point is christians and jews feel more closely connected not because of their basis of religion but because their histories intertwine more closely then with muslims.
Yeah, you're making sense. Personally, I've never felt closer to Jews than Muslims, but I guess some people may.

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Old 12-04-2001, 09:59 AM   #7
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anitram, i'm not saying i do feel closer to jews the muslims. it's easier to favor the jews, which is why i don't do it. i can't choose a side. i don't think anyone should take the easy way out when it comes to respect.

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Old 12-04-2001, 10:51 AM   #8
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Israel currently occupies land siezed during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. This land is not theirs and according to international law, they should have withdrawn. In fact, the UN has ordered them to do so roughly 35 times in the past 40 years. (see UN Resoluton 242)

But they haven't.

Not only have they held onto this land, they have also settled it extensively. Something explicitly prohibited by international treaty. Settlement of expropriated land is a war crime.

Of course, that brings up the question, what happened to the people living there?

Israel took care of them with a program of ethnic cleansing. Forcing them out of their homes, herding them into camps and caging them like animals for 40+ years.

Naturally, the Palestineans are a bit pissed off that someone came in and stole their land, the UN told the Israelis they had to leave, but the US unilaterially backed Israel in ignoring the resolutions.

So, having been occupied, ethnicly clensed and utterly ignored by the "symbol of freedom" that is the U.S, many chose the unpleasent route of terrorism.

But, while the Palestineans are usually blamed for everything, especially when any Israeli dies, most people fail to recognize the fact that Israel has killed 10 times as many Palestineans. And more unarmed civillians than Al-Queda.

Take a look at what they did in Dayr Yassin

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"...without discriminating among men and women, children and old people. They finished their work by loading some of the 'prisoners' who had fallen into their hands onto cars and parading them in streets of Jerusalem in a 'victory convoy,' amidst the cheers of the Jewish masses. After that, these 'prisoners' were returned to the village and killed. The victims included men, women, and children, a total of 245 people."
Or, perhaps, al Dawayima village

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“The first wave of conquerors killed about 80 to 100 Arabs, women and children. They killed the children by breaking their heads with sticks. There was not a house without dead. One woman, with a new-born baby in her arms was employed to clean the courtyard.... (they) shot her and the baby.... This was not in the heat of battle.... but a system of expulsion and destruction”. (soldier’s testimony cited by Morris 1987, p 222).
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Old 12-04-2001, 10:52 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram:
Actually, if you want to compare religions, Christians are not more closely associated with Jews. Christians have much more common with Muslims, because Muslims give recognition to Jesus (albeit as the 2nd last prophet), whereas Jews do not assign him any elevated status. It is this issue, which turned into the ugly suggestion of "deicide", which has played an intrinsic role in Christian directed anti-Semitism throughout the ages.
Actually, on basis of both religion and history, Christians are much more entertwined with teh Jews. Christians believe in the Old Testament, as do teh Jews. In fact, Christians view the Old Testament as very vital in that it tells our religious and historical roots. It is also filled with prophecies about the coming Messiah, which was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Not only that, but the New Testament says that Christians are an extension of the Jewish faith, that gentiles have been "grafted into the vine", which means that any person who accepts Christ as Savior can join the Jews in being "God's people". Judaism and Christianity are so woven together it's unblievable. Islam has some similar history with the Jews and Christians, also, but it all starts to differ when we get to the story of Abram, Sarai, Hagar, Isaac, and Ishmael. Christian and Jews believe that the holy birthright (through which the true religion -salvation- would eventually arise) went to Isaac, and Muslims believe it went to Ishmael. This was a very important distinction. Yes, the Muslims do give Jesus recognition whereas the Jews don't. However, since Christians believe that Christ is the son of God and is the only way to salvation, and Islam doesn't, it doesn't matter. The beliefs are not the same at all.
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Old 12-04-2001, 10:54 AM   #10
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DoctorGonzo, that is why, to me, Ariel Sharon is a war criminal, and should be sitting next to Milosevic in the Hague.
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
Israel currently occupies land siezed during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. This land is not theirs and according to international law, they should have withdrawn. In fact, the UN has ordered them to do so roughly 35 times in the past 40 years. (see UN Resoluton 242)
How exactly did that war start again? Wasn't Israel attacked and when they retaliated, they gained land in the process? How would that make it unfair for them to keep it? I'm afraid I don't quite get it. Not trying to take sides...I just don't have all the facts, that's why I ask.
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:22 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram:
DoctorGonzo, that is why, to me, Ariel Sharon is a war criminal, and should be sitting next to Milosevic in the Hague.
I think Sharon is maybe the third most dangerous person in the Middle East (after Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein). In his speech two days ago he accused Arafat of not wanting peace. On the other hand, Sharon has repeatedly said that and acted like he's against peace with the Palestinians. For one thing, he's totally against the Palestinians having their own state. Sharon continues the process of creating and expanding settlements, even though the Mitchell agreement speaks out against it.

So, Anitram, I'm partly with you here. Hopefully Shimon Peres will get to power soon.



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Old 12-04-2001, 12:55 PM   #13
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How exactly did that war start again? Wasn't Israel attacked and when they retaliated, they gained land in the process? How would that make it unfair for them to keep it? I'm afraid I don't quite get it. Not trying to take sides...I just don't have all the facts, that's why I ask.
I'm glad you ask! There is too little of that in our world.

If we all asked more questions, this world of ours would be a much better place.

Anyway, the 1967 war started with a preemptive strike on Egypt by Israel, in the process land was seized.

A nation's army can occupy land that does not belong to it during the course of a war. It is an established and well-accepted fact.

However, when the conflict is over (and in this case, The 6 Day War did not last very long, obviously) all parties in the conflict must renounce their territorial gains and withdraw to within their origional borders.

Annexing land by force is a war crime.

In fact, it was a charge brought against the German hirearchy during the Nuremberg trials and is explicity foribben under international law.
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Old 12-05-2001, 12:36 AM   #14
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In fact, the conflict itself goes back much further than 1967.

But the Arab-Israeli War of 1967 is a good reference point because the borders prior to that conflict would be a good starting point for establishing an independent Palestinian state; the problem will be that some of these lands border Egypt while others border Jordan and Syria on the opposite side of Egypt.

I truly think that Yasser Arafat is only interested in carving out a portion of current-day Isreal for this porposed Palestinian state. However, some of the more extreme groups who are allegedly fighting for the Palestinians, namely Hamas and Hezbollah, are interested in making ALL Israeli lands into an Arab state of Palestine.

Needless to say, I do not think that an independent state of Palestine, carved from the pre-1967 borders, will happen with Ariel Sharon at the helm. He is too much of an Israeli hardliner who arrogantly encourages Jewish settlers to move into Palestinian areas (I can't even figure out why they would want to). Maybe Perez will/would be better, but I don't know. The Mitchell Plan needs to be put into place soon so that we can see where things will go.

That being said, Arafat needs to be bold and capture and turn over anyone involved in this past weekend's bombings. I realize this could be a security risk for Arafat as he will have to turn his alleged "allies" over to Israel, but it sure beats having airstrikes hitting 50 yards from his office, I would think.

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Old 12-05-2001, 02:33 AM   #15
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Perhaps we just need to pull out and let Israel fight for themselves...

If they make it - fine. If not, that is just the way it goes...

I for one am sick of Americans dying to keep that pile of dust in the desert "this name" or "that name"...if only the damn Romans would have left the Jews alone and started that damn "despora" thing...
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Old 12-05-2001, 03:14 AM   #16
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Thank you for the clarification, DoctorGonzo. That does help me in making a bit more sense out of things.
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Old 12-05-2001, 03:35 AM   #17
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Actually, pulling support for Israel would be a good thing. Just sign an order that says the U.S will suspend funding to Israel until it complies with U.N Resolution 242, the UN Declaration Of Human Rights and The Geneva Convention.

Right now, part of the problem is the fact they have the upper hand. 3 Billion dollars a year in U.S taxpayer funds to support their suspect policies gives them no incentive to halt their illegal actions and make any real strides toward peace. Many in the Israeli government believe Jews are a superior race and that they have the right to all the land in the area beacuse they are the "chosen people". So they have very little motivation to actually give up something significant as opposed to the little bits and peices they are offering.

My solution:

-Create a Palestinean state along the lines of the pre-1967 borders.

- Make Jerusalem an international city. It is too important to too many people to belong to any one government, especially a theocracy.

- Create a transport corridor between the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

- Make The Golan Heights a demilliterized zone. Put a few UN peackeepers in there with a standing mandate to bring in a larger, combat force to repel any nation or group attempting to remilliterize it.

- Garuntee the Right Of Return to all refugees. (Arabs are allowed to go back to the land they were forced out of when Israel launched Plan Dalet) Israel contends this would "destroy the Jewish state". Too bad. The people who were ethnicly-cleansed out of the area are garunteed their right to the land that was stolen from them beginning in 1948 by the U.N Declaration of Human Rights and The Geneva Convention.

Israel doesn't want there to be a majority of non-Jews in the country. It wants to dictate the racial and religious makeup of the population and who gets to own land and have political power.

Didn't the Nazis do the same thing, and use the same methods to achieve their goals?

Of course they did, but no one is allowed to make the comparison, because Jews were victims of the Nazis. In fact, anyone who criticizes the Israeli government is open to being labled an anti-semite. Pro-Zionists love to drag out the Nazi references to smear their opponents.

And it always works.

I mean, when supporters of Israel call you a Nazi, it's pretty hard to live that one down.

And personally, I believe it degrades the very memory of all who died during the Halocaust. It is a cheap cop-out and ploy that insults all those who suffered under the Nazi regeime.

But many pro-Zionists know they can lay down the guilt-trip without having to back it up or even address and refute the charges made against them.

Roughly 90 billion has been spent supporting what Israel does, and they would love to keep the money flowing. It leaves them in a position where they have very little to lose in the whole scheme of things. They can use any means......and believe me, they do use any means to acheive their goals.

- Torture

- Assasination of people who may possibly commit crimes sometime in the future.

- Targeting of civillians and indiscriminate bombings of civillian population centers.

- A policy of Nuremberg-like laws limiting the rights of non Jews....even if they are Israeli citizens.

- Kidnapping

- Illegal expropriation of land

- Illegal settlement of land

- Ethnic Cleansing, not to far removed from what the Nazis themselves did to the Jews

A few quotes on Ethnic Cleansing from here:

Quote:
"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."
Quote:
"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
Quote:
"That Ben-Gurion's ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."
Quote:
"During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.
Quote:
"The first UN General Assembly resolution--Number 194- affirming the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was passed on December 11, 1948. It has been repassed no less than twenty-eight times since that first date. Whereas the moral and political right of a person to return to his place of uninterrupted residence is acknowledged everywhere, Israel has negated the possibility of return... [and] systematically and juridically made it impossible, on any grounds whatever, for the Arab Palestinian to return, be compensated for his property, or live in Israel as a citizen equal before the law with a Jewish Israeli." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
Remember folks, this is what our 3 billion dollars a year is paying to maintain.
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Old 12-05-2001, 09:20 AM   #18
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Islam has some similar history with the Jews and Christians, also, but it all starts to differ when we get to the story of Abram, Sarai, Hagar, Isaac, and Ishmael. Christian and Jews believe that the holy birthright (through which the true religion -salvation- would eventually arise) went to Isaac, and Muslims believe it went to Ishmael. This was a very important distinction.
I am quoting Oxtoby's "World Religions, Volume 2".

"Physically the Arabs, including Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, are said to be descendants of Abraham through his son Ishmael (Ismail in Arabic). Religiously, Abraham's faith in the One God, is the true islam that according to the Qur'an and Islamic 'tradition', provides the basis for the islamic faith."


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Old 12-05-2001, 09:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:

- Make Jerusalem an international city. It is too important to too many people to belong to any one government, especially a theocracy.
hey! that's my main theory. jerusalem is the center of the world's three major religions, it shouldn't belong to anyone. i think we should make jerusalem what vatican city is, it's only little country. then all three religions of the world can put religious leaders there, nobody will live there. the rest of israel can be divided between the israelies and the palestinians.





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Old 12-05-2001, 12:27 PM   #20
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I'm not going to contribute anything meaningful to this discussion but I do want to say it's heartening to say the least to see that a lot of Americans here wish they would withdraw their unilateral support for Israel!


I just don't understand what Sharon is doing...the F-16's are in the process of destroying the PLA's security infrastructures - the very entities that are charged with taking preventive measures and arresting the people responsible for these atrocities!
I find no logic in Sharon's logic....This man does not want peace at all.
It wasn't Arafat's helicopters that caused the carnage over the weekend...oh, this subject infuriates me so!!!
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