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Old 12-05-2001, 01:07 PM   #21
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I compare this situation to what would happen if Native Americas took back control of the United States. At one time they, in a sense, owned the land. They controlled everything in their own way.
If this were to happen, current, anglo-saxon Americans would be pissed off at what the Indians were doing, right? It would probably lead to conflict. right? Well, of course it would!
I can't side with either group, because I know the Jews controled the land eons ago and the Palestinians have controlled it for the majority of our modern history.
The solution is simple. One group can either decide to migrate to other area of the world and end all this violence, or both sides can understand that it is impossible to separate themselves from the rest of the world. I compare THIS situation to sharing a room with a brother or sister. When I was younger, my parent's house was so small, my sister and I had to share a room. I HATED this, because I wanted my own space, just as my sister. Unforunately we didn't have an extra room, so we worked with what we had. Sure there were squabbles and fights, but we always realized it was easier to respect each other and keep our cool, as opposed to fighting over "a line we drew through the middle of the floor".
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Old 12-05-2001, 08:41 PM   #22
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DoctorGonzo:

I pretty much agree with you up until this point:

Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
- Garuntee the Right Of Return to all refugees. (Arabs are allowed to go back to the land they were forced out of when Israel launched Plan Dalet) Israel contends this would "destroy the Jewish state". Too bad. The people who were ethnicly-cleansed out of the area are garunteed their right to the land that was stolen from them beginning in 1948 by the U.N Declaration of Human Rights and The Geneva Convention.

Israel doesn't want there to be a majority of non-Jews in the country. It wants to dictate the racial and religious makeup of the population and who gets to own land and have political power.
A huge reason that Israel is always grabbing land and new settlements is because they have not controlled immigration effectively; I am actually talking about the immigration of ethnic Jews from Russia, Europe, and to a lesser extent, the U.S. But when these Jews immigrate into already-crowded Israel, it pushes the need for settlements into Palestinian territories.

I think with two seperate states, Israel (designated for the Jews) and Palestine (designated for Palestinians), both parties can retian their own identity. In NEITHER case should religion mold the government into a theocracy (the majority of Israel's Jewish population is far more secular than most people realize).

So my solution is stricter bilateral imigration policy for Israel: no new Jews OR Palestinians. And the Palestinian state that I think should be formed would not only include land that Israel took in 1967, but ALSO land that Jordan and Syria assumed at that time. Israel recently offered about 97% of this territory, and my feeling is that Arafat would have accepted it if not for pressure from extremists.

Granted, EVERYONE will never be happy, but I think two independent states with reasonable borders is the best solution. I think Jewish people should have the right to exist with full rights and democracy in the Middle East; Osama bin Laden, Hamas, and other extremists do not think that any non-Muslims should be in the area. Perhaps when they allow me to open a Pentecostal Church or a Temple of Grasshoppers in Saudi Arabia, I will re-consider my views on Israeli immigration policy.

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Old 12-06-2001, 04:49 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
A huge reason that Israel is always grabbing land and new settlements is because they have not controlled immigration effectively; I am actually talking about the immigration of ethnic Jews from Russia, Europe, and to a lesser extent, the U.S. But when these Jews immigrate into already-crowded Israel, it pushes the need for settlements into Palestinian territories.
Does it?

I'm sorry that I can't remember where I read it (might be here some weeks ago) but the settlements are not meant to face the problem of immigrantion/overcrowding. An example is Hebron. This Palestinian city has 120,000 inhabitants (Palestinians). It also has 400 settlers (guarded by maybe at least as many Israeli soldiers). Couldn't these settlers live on land that originally belonged to Israel?
I mean, 400 people isn't that many and by placing them in an Israeli city it would decrease a lot of unrest. Of course, there also live settlers in/near other Palestinian cities, but they can also be placed in other Israeli cities. It would be a first, but important, step to a more peaceful situation.

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Old 12-06-2001, 10:09 AM   #24
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Agreed, Popmartijn, but I guess I was talking more about Israel as a whole than individual settlement areas, and over the span of the last 34 years. Today, I think Sharon may be using it as a (sinister) tactic to extend Israel's claims in the area, to maybe give them more room for future growth. I am not at all justifying over-immigration as an excuse for the settlements, because I think the settlements are wrong and a huge obstacle to the peace process, going in reverse of the way things should be going. I cited as a "need" but not one that I legitimize at all. I think their "need" is to pull back and to give the Palestinians an independent state with clearly defined borders.

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Old 12-06-2001, 02:23 PM   #25
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BIN LADEN IS AN ASSSSSSSS
SADAM IS AN ASSSSSSSS
SHARON IS EQUALLY AN ASSSSSSSSSSSS....

Sharon has the decency of going to ground 0, when he ordered a masacre on innocent Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebonon (Sabra and sharilla)...... Thousends and thousends of innocent men, women, and children were killed..... This man also decided to mess up the Camp David peace confrence during 2000, by making a lousy venture into Mount Temple with thousends of soldiers.... You ask me, this guy is a terrorist..... Along with Bin Laden and Sadam...... To hell with all them....

Peace,
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Old 12-06-2001, 02:27 PM   #26
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Sorry, by getting caught up in my anger toward those 3 ass holes....

But, My love and prayers go to the victims of the suicide bombing... Also, along with all the victims of terror....

Peace on earth,
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Old 12-07-2001, 03:52 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amna:
BIN LADEN IS AN ASSSSSSSS
SADAM IS AN ASSSSSSSS
SHARON IS EQUALLY AN ASSSSSSSSSSSS....
You left out Arafat.
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Old 12-07-2001, 01:54 PM   #28
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yea, I don't like Arafat... But, in my oppinion, Sharon has done many more threatening things to the innocent... Arafat has made the public effort in going towards a peaceful path, though he has failed, he has made some sort of effort..... Though these bombings are being blamed on Arafat, he did not order these bombings... Where as Sharon ordered many masacres.......

Sharon is a much bigger ass then Arafat, he ranks up there with bin laden and Sadam...... Afrafat is a stinker though...
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Old 12-07-2001, 09:30 PM   #29
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Amna,

Arafat is as bad as any of them. He is an appalling man. If peace truly depends on the likes of Sharon and Arafat we are all doomed.

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Old 12-07-2001, 09:50 PM   #30
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Arafat is a bad man, in my oppinion.... However, I do think that he has made some sort of efforts to go towards a more peaceful way..... Camp David Accords in 2000 is an example.... They were almost at the verge of making REAL progress, however Sharon had to screw it all up..... This resulted in the second Intifada... I have not seen Sharon make any effort of going towards peace....... I do think that Arafat bull sh**s alot, but, he still looks more grounded then sharon...... Sharon, Bin Laden, Sadam, and Hitler are all devils in disguises.........

I'm not in any way saying that Arafat is a good man..... I just think that he isn't as bad as Sharon......

Peace out,
Amna
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Old 12-07-2001, 11:11 PM   #31
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Amna is correct in that Arafat has made SOME effort towards peace. He wants an independent Palestinian state, and he is the leader of the Palestinian Authority. Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad are terrorist organizations, and they went the Jewish people expelled from the Holy Land. Arafat has gone to the table a few times to seek a peaceable solution. Former Israeli Prime Minister Barak did as well. Sharon, however, is a hardliner, but even Sharon has made positive steps in this direction. But whenever he has done this (usually under pressure from Powell or Bush, such as the recent pullback from the settlement areas), some evil terrorist attack has been committed by one of the terrorist organizations.

Arafat's problem is that he is a bit too stubborn and complacent in responding to such attacks. But it really pisses me off and frustrates me that yesterday, after Arafat ordered raids of suspected hideouts from last weekend's bombings, Sharon bombs a Palestinian police station. Does Sharon not wish to give him a chance to bring the suspects to justice?

And if Arafat is gone, who will lead the Palestinians? Probably a true radical. Take your pick.

Let me close with this:

I think it is HILARIOUS that an attempted "suicide bomber" succeded only in blowing himself up earlier this week with his little attack.

~U2Alabama

[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 12-07-2001).]
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