Is this enough for impeachment?

[trevster2k]

The Patriot Act is a moot point anyway based on what Bush has admitted doing.

If he can bypass your laws to do whatever spying the administration wants, well, so much for due process and legislation.

I must acknowledge Dreadsox for posting this thread since he appears to be solid supporter of Bush but knows when something stinks. I know it is a difficult position to take for you but good for you.

But I don't think anything will happen from this, Bush is like teflon, despite all his faults, worst layed plans like going to Mars, or revamping Social Security, nothing sticks.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

That sign is priceless. Seriously .

As for Bush...*Sits here and continues to question why this guy got re-elected*.

But hell, this administration in general just really, really bothers me. It will be a lovely day when any of these people leave office, it really will.

Angela

 

[A_Wanderer]

Yikes!

If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there’s a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country’s largest intelligence agency. The top-secret Global Surveillance Network is called Echelon, and it’s run by the National Security Agency and four English-speaking allies: Canada, Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

The mission is to eavesdrop on enemies of the state: foreign countries, terrorist groups and drug cartels. But in the process, Echelon’s computers capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world.

How does it work, and what happens to all the information that’s gathered? A lot of people have begun to ask that question, and some suspect that the information is being used for more than just catching bad guys.

link

 

[hiphop]

A_Wanderer - Echelon, Magistrand etc. have been around for a long time. There are papers from agents dating back to 1999 at least. The system was already used to spy on people in the 70s.

You have the crypt link anyway.. however you can read an interesting summary at cryptome.org/echelon-baby.htm

 

[trevster2k]

That's really disturbing, Wanderer. I guess Big Brother is watching and listening.

 

[Scarletwine]

Gonzales was on this morning. His justification is that Congress allowed this when they voted for the President to use force right after 9/11. The vote for force included all means necessary including wiretapping Americans. Pretty lame argument if you ask me.

If that's the best they can come up with I think they're in trouble.

 

[Dreadsox]

Gonzales was on this morning. His justification is that Congress allowed this when they voted for the President to use force right after 9/11. The vote for force included all means necessary including wiretapping Americans. Pretty lame argument if you ask me.

If that's the best they can come up with I think they're in trouble.

I could see it if they actually made a formal declaration of war. that is not what they did!

 

[BVS]

Gonzales was on this morning. His justification is that Congress allowed this when they voted for the President to use force right after 9/11. The vote for force included all means necessary including wiretapping Americans. Pretty lame argument if you ask me.

We're living in dangerous times when you have justifications like this and people turning blind eyes...

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

*Shudders*

Yeah, that's really creepy if all of that's true...how on earth does this administration think they have the right to do any of that sort of thing?

Idiots.

Angela

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051219...sNeDawGw_IE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

In opening news conference remarks, Bush said the warrantless spying, conducted by the National Security Agency, was an essential element in the war on terror.

"It was a shameful act for someone to disclose this important program in a time of war. The fact that we're discussing this program is helping the enemy," he said.

On Capitol Hill, Democrats rejected Bush's rationale and said he had abused his authority.

"Where does he find in the Constitution the authority to tap the wires and the phones of American citizens without any court oversight?" said Sen. Carl Levin , D-Mich.

Sen. Russ Feingold , D-Wis., said, "We will not tolerate a president who believes that he is the sole decision-maker when it comes to the policies that this country should have in the war against terror and the policies we should have to protect the rights of completely innocent Americans."

"He is the president, not a king," Feingold said.

 

[Irvine511]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051219...sNeDawGw_IE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

In opening news conference remarks, Bush said the warrantless spying, conducted by the National Security Agency, was an essential element in the war on terror.

"It was a shameful act for someone to disclose this important program in a time of war. The fact that we're discussing this program is helping the enemy," he said.

 

[U2democrat]

Yeah the words that have been coming out of his mouth lately are downright scary. We cannot let this stand as simply a way of protecting the people...we will not have our liberties taken away and be treated as on the side of terrorists or "defeatists"

 

[For Honor]

 

[the rockin edge]

 

[anitram]

"It was a shameful act for someone to disclose this important program in a time of war.

Yes, because that's what's shameful about this.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

on one of those quick vote polls on cnn.com this is the question

Do you agree with President Bush that secret wiretaps are needed to protect the American people?

so far it's

Yes 41%

51192 votes

No

59%

74347 votes

This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of Internet users in general, nor the public as a whole. The QuickVote sponsor is not responsible for content, functionality or the opinions expressed therein.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The point of the previously indicated article was that under Clinton there may have been internal checks. But the premise of echelon doesn't calculate because of the vast quantities of data required, even with the best compression it would still require absurd computational power. Full investigations into where the exceptions to the rules exist should be in order.

Also why is it that one leak that compromises national security is a bad thing but another leak that compromises national security is a good thing?

 

[japes4]

I could see it if they actually made a formal declaration of war. that is not what they did!

If we're not in a state of war, what would you call the war in Iraq?
Congress approved Bush's invasion of Iraq or whatever you want to call it. The Constitution doesn't require any specific language in regard to a declaration. If Congress supports Bush's invasion we are in fact in a formal state of war.

That being the case, Bush has taken action domestically to allow enforcement agencies to "connect the dots" if you will (i.e. wire taps). This is something that every president since Roosevelt has done in a time of war.

 

[deep]

Is this enough for impeachment?

Yes

This will all play out eventually in congressional committees and in the United States Supreme Court. If the Democrats regain control of Congress, there may even be articles of impeachment introduced. Similar abuse of power was part of the impeachment charge brought against Richard Nixon in 1974.

Dec. 19, 2005 - Finally we have a Washington scandal that goes beyond sex, corruption and political intrigue to big issues like security versus liberty and the reasonable bounds of presidential power. President Bush came out swinging on Snoopgate—he made it seem as if those who didn’t agree with him wanted to leave us vulnerable to Al Qaeda—but it will not work. We’re seeing clearly now that Bush thought 9/11 gave him license to act like a dictator, or in his own mind, no doubt, like Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War.

No wonder Bush was so desperate that The New York Times not publish its story on the National Security Agency eavesdropping on American citizens without a warrant, in what lawyers outside the administration say is a clear violation of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. I learned this week that on December 6, Bush summoned Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger and executive editor Bill Keller to the Oval Office in a futile attempt to talk them out of running the story. The Times will not comment on the meeting, but one can only imagine the president’s desperation.


Newsweek Article

 

[deep]

but another leak that compromises national security is a good thing

that is just flat out bullshit



and the secret torture prisons leak is bullshit, too

 

[hiphop]

Re: Re: Is this enough for impeachment?

We’re seeing clearly now that Bush thought 9/11 gave him license to act like a dictator

oh-oh... clear words.. have they been deported to Guantanamo yet?

 

[joyfulgirl]

Yeah, I think this could finally bring the bastard down.

 

[Sherry Darling]

I will be calling my Senators and Rep today to express my outrage and shock at this (yes, it does actually still have the power to shock me).

Funny, some of my friends who are more liberal that I am were saying since about 9/12/01 that this would get progressively worse and made comparisons to McCarthy. I told them they were overreacting.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

PETA? Poverty groups? What the? I wonder if they investigated the One Campaign and/or DATA..

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/p...&ex=1135746000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

WASHINGTON, Dec. 19 - Counterterrorism agents at the Federal Bureau of Investigation have conducted numerous surveillance and intelligence-gathering operations that involved, at least indirectly, groups active in causes as diverse as the environment, animal cruelty and poverty relief, newly disclosed agency records show.

F.B.I. officials said Monday that their investigators had no interest in monitoring political or social activities and that any investigations that touched on advocacy groups were driven by evidence of criminal or violent activity at public protests and in other settings.

After the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, John Ashcroft, who was then attorney general, loosened restrictions on the F.B.I.'s investigative powers, giving the bureau greater ability to visit and monitor Web sites, mosques and other public entities in developing terrorism leads. The bureau has used that authority to investigate not only groups with suspected ties to foreign terrorists, but also protest groups suspected of having links to violent or disruptive activities.

But the documents, coming after the Bush administration's confirmation that President Bush had authorized some spying without warrants in fighting terrorism, prompted charges from civil rights advocates that the government had improperly blurred the line between terrorism and acts of civil disobedience and lawful protest.

One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a "Vegan Community Project." Another document talks of the Catholic Workers group's "semi-communistic ideology." A third indicates the bureau's interest in determining the location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

 

[Scarletwine]

This whole issue makes one wonder just who he was having wiretapped. It he could legally have anyone taped through FISA, even after the fact, why would he not do so. It is arrogance or is it that he was wiretapping people he knew he wouldn't get clearance for certainly they would give clearance for suspected terrorists. Maybe the DNC, journalists, political opponents? Shades of Nixon methinks.

 

[U2democrat]

I will be calling my Senators and Rep today to express my outrage and shock at this (yes, it does actually still have the power to shock me).

Funny, some of my friends who are more liberal that I am were saying since about 9/12/01 that this would get progressively worse and made comparisons to McCarthy. I told them they were overreacting.

Whose district are you in? Moran?

Sen. Warner is hopefully pretty pissed about this but I bet Allen is sucking up to Bush.

 

[BVS]

One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a "Vegan Community Project." Another document talks of the Catholic Workers group's "semi-communistic ideology." A third indicates the bureau's interest in determining the location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

If you don't live well within the status quo, if you think outside the box, if you question anything you are the enemy.

 

[U2democrat]

I bet they must monitor FYM like crazy...............

 

[Scarletwine]

This letter from Rockelfeller blows away the idea that Democratic Senate Leaders endorsed this illegal policy. He was forbidden from talking about this issue but man was he smart to keep a copy.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/rock-cheney1.html