Is this discrimination, bigorty or neither?

[diamond]

Bar owner seeks help in transgender fight
Lesley Wright
The Arizona Republic
Aug. 7, 2007 11:32 AM

SCOTTSDALE - A Scottsdale bar owner said he will fight a discrimination complaint that transgender patrons made to the Arizona Attorney General's Office.

Tom Anderson, owner of Anderson's Fifth Estate Night Club, 6820 E. Fifth Ave., said he has refused to voluntarily be interviewed under oath by the Attorney General's Office.

“If the Attorney General's Office wants to talk to me, they need to serve a subpoena,” Anderson said. Since the ramifications of the case could be “staggering” for other restaurants and bars, Anderson said he has launched a legal defense fund to fight the charges.


Andrea Esquer, spokeswoman for the Attorney General's Office, said the office can not acknowledge complaints. No formal charges or lawsuits are pending, Esquer said.

The dispute began late last year when Anderson asked Michele deLaFreniere and some other patrons to leave the night club because they had “freaked out” women customers by using the women's rest rooms.

When the transgender patrons tried to use the men's room, they complained to Anderson that male patrons harassed them and took their pictures.

“It was determined that the safest course for the protection of all was to exclude these particular individuals because their conduct was creating tension at the night club,” Anderson said.

DeLaFreniere, who is chairman of the Scottsdale Human Relations Commission and a city employee, said it was a matter of discrimination and filed the complaint.

Chuck Kelhoffer, Anderson's attorney, said the bar owner is concerned that the attorney general could press charges of discrimination on the grounds of sexual stereotyping. The argument has been used primarily in employment cases. Anderson said that he has no bias against transgender individuals, but could not afford to put in a third rest room specifically for that group.

The cost of fighting the case could be high.

“Since this situation has turned out to be a national issue and I am defending myself and a lot of other people that will be in my position, the (legal) prices will be overwhelming,” Anderson said. “There's no way to mount this defense without putting my businesses in jeopardy so I am putting together a defense fund.”

 

[BVS]

When the transgender patrons tried to use the men's room, they complained to Anderson that male patrons harassed them and took their pictures.

This is who should have been asked to leave...

I say we all go the way of Ally McBeal and have non-specific restrooms.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It's discrimination, but I don't see how he should be stopped.

 

[diamond]

From another publication:

Tranny-Gate
This bawdy bluebird ponders a tranny's package, plays politics with firefighters, and poops a load all over PHX scenester Brodie Hubbard
From the beak of The Bird to the ear of Stephen Lemons
Published: December 28, 2006

Talk about The Crying Game! For the past month, Scottsdale club owner Tom Anderson of Anderson's Fifth Estate and local "diversity activist" Michele De Lafreniere have been engaged in an epic donnybrook of penile proportions. Seems De Lafreniere has been kickin' up a shit storm after being tossed out of Anderson's on Saturday, November 25. De Lafreniere, who claims to be a transsexual woman, says she and five other transsexual buds were 86'd permanently that night.

Fred Harper
Subject(s): Peoria City Council, Bob "Bulldog" Barrett, International Association of Firefighters Local I-60, Michele De Lafreniere, Brodie Hubbard, Anderson's Fifth Estate "He [Anderson] came up to me and my friends and said, 'We don't want your kind here anymore,'" screeched De Lafreniere to this woodpecker. "He's got a lot of apologizing to do."

The catty clubbinista insists she's a longtime Anderson's devotee, and has been hitting the nightspot every weekend for five years, even before assuming a female identity. Since Anderson's turned her out, she's been on the warpath picketing across the street from the club on Saturday nights; sending e-mails to promoters; calling up local station Mix 96.9 to demand it stop hosting events at Anderson's; e-mailing Clear Channel (which owns Mix 96.9); petitioning the local ACLU in hopes it'll pick up her much-threatened "class action lawsuit"; and tweeting to any local media outlet that'll listen, including this malevolent magpie.

Yet Anderson coos a different tune, one not unlike Aerosmith's "Dude (Looks Like a Lady)" or Ray Davies' "Lola."

"I never said 'I don't want your kind in here,'" Anderson assured this avian. "I'm tired of being made out to be some Aryan Brotherhood bigot. I have no problem with different ways of life at all."

So if Anderson ain't no Mr. Homophobic, why tell trannies to hit the bricks? According to Anderson, De Lafreniere and her faux female friends were constantly using the chicks' loo, and not just for potty. They were also hanging at the sinks as female patrons applied eyeliner, etc. Anderson said he was so overwhelmed with complaints from female customers that he had no choice but to ban the brokeback bitches.

"I'm protecting the security and the rights of the women who come into my club," squawked Anderson. "These are not small, feminine 'women.' They look like men in dresses, with beard stubble and stuff like that."

Truly, De Lafreniere's a real bruiser, standing 6'2" and weighing more than 200 pounds. Still, she says she and her "transsexual" friends are as femme as Cameron Diaz, and as such, have a right to use the gals' bog. Here's the prob: De Lafreniere may not be transsexual, as far as this canary can determine without eyeballing the goods. Same for her clubgoing cohorts. They're more likely transgenders — people who feel like one gender, but are trapped in the body of another, so they dress and act like their "inner genders." Transsexuals are people who've had sexual reassignment surgery to physically change their sex organs.

See, this crafty cardinal discovered De Lafreniere'd popped up in the local media before, in a June 12, 2005, East Valley Tribune story titled "Diversity activist switches genders." De Lafreniere was going by the name Michele Culver then.

The Trib revealed De Lafreniere was born Kenneth Culver. The guy was married for 20 years, has two teenage children, and used to own a Scottsdale shop called the Bike Emporium.

Asked by this inquiring egret if she or any of her club buddies still has a tallywacker, De Lafreniere hissed, "It doesn't matter. It says on my driver's license I'm female."

But De Lafreniere admitted to the Trib in 2005 that she hadn't had sex-change surgery, that she was "saving money" for the procedure, which costs from $7,000 to $24,000.

"I know people who know these people," Anderson asserted, referring to De Lafreniere and her posse. "They have their male parts. Hell, if Michele's penis is fat and 13 inches, I'll buy it from her! If she's not using it, I will."

By the way, this filthy finch did ask to see De Lafreniere's naughty bits, but she refused. So the mystery endures.

Hold on to your headfeathers, chickadees, it gets nuttier.

Before Ken Culver started taking female hormones and doing his impersonation of Wesley Snipes in To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar, he was elected to Scottsdale's Human Relations Commission. Culver changed genders and names in '05, but as Michele De Lafreniere, still serves on the Commission as Chairwoman, er, Chair-man — oh, forget it.

Indeed, she told The Bird she's working on a petition for a bill that'd outlaw discrimination against transgenders and transsexuals in any Scottsdale club. Her tiff with Anderson's Fifth Estate provides the perfect springboard.

"She's trying to be the Rosa Parks of the transsexual world," Anderson told this talon-bearer.

Thing about it is, Rosa Parks just wanted to sit down. But De Lafreniere, she can likely still do her business standing up.

 

[martha]

Stephen Lemons

Why is this man so nasty and mean?

 

[diamond]

Why is this man so nasty and mean?

I don't know the man, but a quick Google search makes him appear to be not the most pleasant of ppl.

dbs

 

[martha]

I don't know the man, but a quick Google search makes him appear to be not the most pleasant of ppl.

That doesn't help convince people to agree with him.



Or maybe it does nowadays.

 

[Angela Harlem]

ok, so tell me what makes this one a poll? or a question, even?

real gritty, bruno.

 

[diamond]

ok, so tell me what makes this one a poll? or a question, even?

real gritty, bruno.

I enjoy taking the pulse of FYM.

dbs

 

[CTU2fan]

To me the issue is are they transsexuals or transgender. If they're transsexuals then they need to be allowed to pee in the ladies', and if anyone has a problem with it they need to deal with it. If they're transgender, then they're still physically men and need to use the mens', and the jackasses harassing them need to be booted. I voted "not without more facts" because the transsexual vs. transgender question doesn't seem to have an answer here.

Personally I think the club owner is in the wrong, but that's just clubs for you...if you and a buddy are minding your own business in a club, and 6 guys start trouble with you, who goes? You & your buddy, because the other 6 dudes will buy more booze than you & your 1 buddy. He'd rather boot the trans-x people then the asses who most likely out-numbered them.

 

[diamond]

To me the issue is are they transsexuals or transgender. -x .

Truly, De Lafreniere's a real bruiser, standing 6'2" and weighing more than 200 pounds. Still, she says she and her "transsexual" friends are as femme as Cameron Diaz, and as such, have a right to use the gals' bog. Here's the prob: De Lafreniere may not be transsexual, as far as this canary can determine without eyeballing the goods. Same for her clubgoing cohorts. They're more likely transgenders — people who feel like one gender, but are trapped in the body of another, so they dress and act like their "inner genders." Transsexuals are people who've had sexual reassignment surgery to physically change their sex organs.

 

[Hinder]

As a rule, in my opinion, the gender that is presented is the gender the persons in question should be treated as. the paranoia the general public persists in indulging in regarding those of us that don't present the 'way we are supposed to' is just plain ignorant, bigoted, and discriminatory. There's just no reason for this kind of behavior. None.

 

[CTU2fan]

As a rule, in my opinion, the gender that is presented is the gender the persons in question should be treated as. the paranoia the general public persists in indulging in regarding those of us that don't present the 'way we are supposed to' is just plain ignorant, bigoted, and discriminatory. There's just no reason for this kind of behavior. None.

Seriously? So you think if I choose to dress as/present myself as a woman I ought to be treated as a woman in every way, up to and including being allowed to use the women's bathroom, live in a women's dorm in college, play in the WNBA etc?

While I agree with the idea (if I see someone dressed as a woman, personally I'm treating them as a woman), I don't think it's really fair to call a woman a bigot if she expects the women's bathroom to be penis-free. I suppose we could just have unisex bathrooms, solves one issue anyway. Personally I don't see what the big deal is; I couldn't care less if a woman used the men's room.

 

[martha]

I suppose we could just have unisex bathrooms, solves one issue anyway.

As long as you guys put the goddamn seat down, I'm cool with this.

But then you'd all have to wait in line with us.

 

[CTU2fan]

^ Only problem with that is, guys will just shoot away with the seat down and after that nobody wants to sit People are downright pigs in public johns, it's gross.

 

[yolland]

^ Only problem with that is, guys will just shoot away with the seat down and after that nobody wants to sit People are downright pigs in public johns, it's gross.

I dunno, I worked retail for years (in a large bookstore) and my closing shift duties often included a brief turn through both the men's and women's restrooms to make sure there wasn't anything that needed to be...taken care of before the cleaning crew arrived the next morning. And I have to say the women's restroom was usually in sadder shape than the men's. Partly because more TP usage is involved, so you get more TP on the floor, but also...how can I put this...I think a lot of (older?) women still have the idea that they're gonna get VD or AIDS or something if they actually sit on the seat. So instead they do the female equivalent of what you're describing...they squat above the seat, then don't bother to clean up the inevitable resulting mess.

Not that that has anything to do with transsexuals but...

 

[CTU2fan]

I dunno, I worked retail for years (in a large bookstore) and my closing shift duties often included a brief turn through both the men's and women's restrooms to make sure there wasn't anything that needed to be...taken care of before the cleaning crew arrived the next morning. And I have to say the women's restroom was usually in sadder shape than the men's. Partly because more TP usage is involved, so you get more TP on the floor, but also...how can I put this...I think a lot of (older?) women still have the idea that they're gonna get VD or AIDS or something if they actually sit on the seat. So instead they do the female equivalent of what you're describing...they squat above the seat, then don't bother to clean up the inevitable resulting mess.

Not that that has anything to do with transsexuals but...

Ah I've been there And that's exactly what it is...guys can stand so sitting isn't an issue for them, but the women are forced to either sit or do the squat, with frightening results.

Don't they have some sort of female urinals though, I think they might be in Europe but could be wrong...

 

[Vincent Vega]

There are urinals for women, but as far as I know they are very rare.

 

[martha]

A bit tricky to use, as well.

 

[Hinder]

Seriously? So you think if I choose to dress as/present myself as a woman I ought to be treated as a woman in every way, up to and including being allowed to use the women's bathroom, live in a women's dorm in college, play in the WNBA etc?

While I agree with the idea (if I see someone dressed as a woman, personally I'm treating them as a woman), I don't think it's really fair to call a woman a bigot if she expects the women's bathroom to be penis-free. I suppose we could just have unisex bathrooms, solves one issue anyway. Personally I don't see what the big deal is; I couldn't care less if a woman used the men's room.

Precisely. If you're presenting as a woman, you should be treated like one. That's it; that's all.