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Old 10-22-2007, 06:12 PM   #61
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i still don't understand how an unrequitted love affair (which is not documented in the book) has people shitting bricks. yet i didn't hear a single word of opposition with myrtle making all sorts of innuendo about harry while he's bathing naked.

my guess is


a) people who are complaining have never read the books and are bored and want something to bitch about

or b) there are fans out there who have still not yet read goblet of fire


how come nobody complained about kids being sexualized when these kids are kissing each other in the story?

unrequited. look it up.
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:40 PM   #62
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And the character belongs to the writer, not the reader.
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:40 PM   #63
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Quite frankly, children are significantly more understanding when it comes to homosexuality than many adults are.
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:02 PM   #64
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I do think it may be unfortunately to think so - but I would honestly not trust my son to be mentored by a homosexual man.
What about a lesbian?
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:08 PM   #65
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
Quite frankly, children are significantly more understanding when it comes to homosexuality than many adults are.
. Kids don't get nearly enough credit regarding their ability to handle things.

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Old 10-22-2007, 07:11 PM   #66
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
Quite frankly, children are significantly more understanding when it comes to homosexuality than many adults are.
I agree, seven year olds calling someone a poof don't mean it in their hearts
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:02 PM   #67
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Do you close her eyes when people kiss on the street? Do mommy and daddy only kiss behind closed doors? I'm sorry but I find this to be ridiculous.




So, who cares? Why do you care if they understand that or not?




I'm glad you understand this.

I fail to see how explaining situations to a child in a way that is appropriate for the child's age to be ridiculous. And the examples you've chosen to illustrate your point...flummery.


I care because I'd rather have a child hear and understand fact and make a decision based on those facts. I'd like to use this as the opening of a dialog, to hear the child's views and opinions as well.
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:24 PM   #68
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I fail to see how explaining situations to a child in a way that is appropriate for the child's age to be ridiculous. And the examples you've chosen to illustrate your point...flummery.
I didn't say explaining situations to a child in a way that is appropriate for the age ridiculous, I was saying that thinking a 4 year old can't handle a kiss on the lips is ridiculous.

Like I said what do the parents do, not kiss in front of the 4 year old?

Quote:
Originally posted by lynnok

I care because I'd rather have a child hear and understand fact and make a decision based on those facts. I'd like to use this as the opening of a dialog, to hear the child's views and opinions as well.
What? This doesn't even make sense.

You said:
Quote:
The age group of the average Potter reader has the life experiences to understand what it means if a character is gay.
If they can understand then what's the problem? This is what I don't get.
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:54 PM   #69
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I can't believe just how much sex some of you seem to think about. And to be frank, I have to wonder about your thought processes and how it is that they differ from mine, because I certainly don't see all of us as potential sex predators. Do you really believe that all adults have some pedophiliac tendencies or something? And gay men have more than others? Can you not imagine an adult who has no such interest in a child and if not, is it because you yourself do? I mean I'm not trying to be offensive here, but what the hell is it about your way of thinking that even goes there constantly? I truly don't get it.
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Old 10-22-2007, 09:16 PM   #70
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I'm looking into registering "ifyodaweregay.com".

That's pretty cool.
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Old 10-22-2007, 09:55 PM   #71
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Originally posted by AEON
Would we think the same about Yoda and Luke if we found out Yoda way gay? I think it would change the dynamic and perhaps add sexual tension for Yoda instead of him simply being frustrated that Luke is a whiner and an impatient learner.


I'm honestly scratching my head here. How would their relationship be any different if Yoda were gay? Are you saying that a mentor can't mentor someone of the gender they're attracted to without sexual tension entering the picture? That a mentor can't be morally upright and do the right thing simply because his/her student is of the gender they're attracted to? I'm sorry, but that's just plain idiotic. Not to mention, Yoda is what....oh, only 870-880 years older than Luke, but you think he's going to let the boy's hot looks get in the way of his task?

I taught piano lessons to a 4th grade girl for a year - every week, one on one for a half hour. Many times sitting right next to her at the piano bench. Not once did sexual tension ever enter the picture. You know why? Because I, as a rational and responsible adult, never even thought about my student as anything other than that: my student. My job was to teach her to play piano, and to treat her with the respect and courtesy that she deserved from a teacher. My piano professor in college was a woman, and she was a mentor to me in many ways, and similarly, there was never any sexual tension. Why? Because she was a rational and responsible adult and understood her role.

Honestly, do you realize how absolutely absurd you sound? Are you that afraid of everyone, that poor a judge of character that you'd rather shelter your child from everything rather than expose them to wonderful people of all walks of life because there's the infinitely small chance someone may act inappropriately?

How do you step out your front door in the morning?
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:06 PM   #72
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Well, I am worried that I am gay. I loved Dumbledore. Now I am questioning my sexuality. Anyone know a good book to help me with this>?
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:39 PM   #73
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Originally posted by Diemen

How do you step out your front door in the morning?
It sounds like there are quite a few in here that may have this problem...

They have medication for this.
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Old 10-23-2007, 12:29 AM   #74
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Originally posted by yolland

I am not really familiar with who youth pastors usually are--are you saying you would insist your church have both straight female and straight male youth pastors, so that your daughter and son both have someone who wouldn't "have a sexual motive" to talk to?

It may be a bit beside the point, but I also think this assumes more parental control over who your children might choose as mentors than actually exists. Sure, your son might see his (straight male) youth pastor as someone he'd want to discuss "life decisions" with, but then again he might prefer a favorite teacher or coach from school for that. At my high school the two most popular 'mentor figures' were a (female, straight) English teacher and a (male, not-sure-since-I-never-knew-him) basketball and debate team coach. Kids of all genders, races and clique types looked up to both of them and would drop by their rooms after school or during lunch period to talk with them about all kinds of things. I knew a few straight boys who talked to the English teacher about their romantic relationships (I don't mean she gave them sex tips, I mean the sort of thing where she might say "I think you're both very young to be getting this serious about each other and spending so much time together to the exclusion of other friends" and so on). I'm sure some guys might've been uncomfortable with that, but plenty of them weren't. Yes, sometimes adults in authority positions do violate that trust, but you can't go through life assuming the worst about authority figures based merely on their gender, sexual orientation, race, whatever.
I'm a bit short on time this evening so I aplogize for the brief response.

In essence, I think it would be most appropiate to have male and female Youth Pastors. Many times this is official, but it is often unofficial (in many churches they are a husband and wife team, usually young adults in their 20's or 30's).

I generally do not like to see men or women counseling youth of the opposite sex in private (something I think is under the umbrella of mentoring). This is for several reasons - and one of them is to protect the adult from false accusations. Another reason is that I think it is best to remove sex from being a factor as much as possible in these types of relationships.
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Old 10-23-2007, 12:37 AM   #75
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Originally posted by anitram
I can't believe just how much sex some of you seem to think about. And to be frank, I have to wonder about your thought processes and how it is that they differ from mine, because I certainly don't see all of us as potential sex predators. Do you really believe that all adults have some pedophiliac tendencies or something? And gay men have more than others? Can you not imagine an adult who has no such interest in a child and if not, is it because you yourself do? I mean I'm not trying to be offensive here, but what the hell is it about your way of thinking that even goes there constantly? I truly don't get it.
I think part of the confusion is that Harry ends up as a young man...not a child.

The comparison of Dumbledore to a pedophile doesn't exactly fit here. I think the uneasiness comes from the fact Dumbledore was a mentor while Harry was coming of age - a central theme in the books - and not just babysitting him at the nursery.

I also wonder how much Rowling is pandering. If it wasn't such a big deal for her - then why didn't she just say in the story? It's like Margaret Mitchell holding a press conference in 1943 that Rhett Butler was really a Freemason.
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Old 10-23-2007, 01:40 AM   #76
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Originally posted by AEON


I generally do not like to see men or women counseling youth of the opposite sex in private (something I think is under the umbrella of mentoring). This is for several reasons - and one of them is to protect the adult from false accusations. Another reason is that I think it is best to remove sex from being a factor as much as possible in these types of relationships.
Being a teacher, I do see the sense in this. It's sad, but these days you have to be extraordinarily careful.

Anyone who teaches (especially if you're a male teacher) knows basic rules (unspoken or official) about things like keeping your door open when talking to a student of the opposite sex and what not. A heterosexual male teacher spending a lot of time in private counseling or mentoring with a teen-aged girl can be a bit dicey.

That said, the Potter stories speak for themselves. Nothing untoward ever happened between Dumbledore and Harry (unless you're inclined to believe the innuendos of Rita Skeeter types) and the revelation that he's gay does nothing to "automatically" suggest that anything did.
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Old 10-23-2007, 01:48 AM   #77
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I also wonder how much Rowling is pandering. If it wasn't such a big deal for her - then why didn't she just say in the story? It's like Margaret Mitchell holding a press conference in 1943 that Rhett Butler was really a Freemason.
Eh. . .I don't know about that. Speaking as an aspiring novelist myself, there's a lot that goes into creating your characters that never makes it on to the page. Some may have heard that she's planning to put out a kind of Harry Potter encyclopedia with all kinds of backstory on many of the characters. (The rumor is that Dean Thomas, I think, is actually this really fascinating guy. . .). In light of how much Rowling has thought about her characters I don't know that this was necessarily a "big deal" trump card she was waiting to play. And my understanding is that she didn't "hold a press conference" to make this announcement. It sounds more like someone asked her a question about if Dumbledore had ever been in love and she answered it. You might be able to argue that she was "pandering" when she decided to "make" him gay in the first place (a kind of "well, I must be politically correct so let me have one of my major characters be gay"), but somehow I don't think so. If she had wanted to do that she would have made it a plot point particularly later in the series. And anyway if she was "pandering", homosexuals weren't the only "interest group" she was "pandering" to. At the very least, I'd argue that Christians, ironically, could be another proported "interest group" as there is some pretty strong Christ imagery, particularly in the last book.

But I don't think she was "pandering" to anyone.
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Old 10-23-2007, 03:13 AM   #78
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I think an underlying theme here is... not the worry that a gay person might molest your child (which is a frankly horrendous repulsive thing to think) but if they are in a mentoring role, and (like a normal person) are happy and content with their life and life choices, they may TAINT your child and ohmygodi'llgetashotgunandkillhimmyself turn him PINK

looking all normal, and having a pictur eof him husband on the desk, and talking to him on the phone, like a normal person instead of the half human sexing disease carrying sicko that people seem to think gay people are.

You're the sick people... for even thinking that, what is wrong with you/your parents and people around you.

Also, kids are the most understanding about love (because as yolland put beautifully, they understand in the most simplistic of terms) unfortunately by the time they get to school, their parents deep centred hatred for gay people (would LOVE to know why) has rubbed off on them and suddenly everything is 'gay' and 'you're a fag' etc

I call them on it, but it means nothing. Being gay or thought of as a poof or a lesbian, is the worst thing that could happen. Now where would they learn that? I have never mentioned gay people, unless in the most positive (for no other reason then it IS positive!) so whos teching them this shit?
Parents. Straight, fucked up, close minded, divorced, coked up, child abusers emotionally and physically and so on. And they're the role models of society while the rest of use (gay, lesibian, transgender and god forbig ATHEISTS) and the scum of the earth.
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Old 10-23-2007, 05:11 AM   #79
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There has been one point missed on the 'if yoda was gay' thing....yoda ain't even human...I don't think Luke or Yoda would be each others type

I really can't believe some people are taking offence to Dumbledore being gay
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Old 10-23-2007, 05:30 AM   #80
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Rowling is defenitely NOT pandering. This bit of storyline has been long in coming and there were those of us who suspected---past a certain point. As a lot of people here seem not to be familar with the books, I'll fill a bit of this in.

Dumbledore is a character filled with many charming eccentricities, but until Book 7 it was impossible to read anything into them as regards his character. In Book 6 two small details emerged that in retrospect mean a lot more...to some. In one flashback scene Dumbledore appears wearing a flashy plum-colored crushed velvet suit and his dark hair is elaborately dressed. In another chapter he expresses a fondness for knitting patterns. (Now some fans are also reading into his professed love of socks and his blushing in a scene from an earlier book where Professor MsGonagall compliments him on his earmuffs. Earmuffs?? OH BROTHER. Some suggest that Dumbledore is the "effeminate" type of gay man and there have been some amusing comments about the actor who plays Dumbledore, Micheal Gambon, possibly doing something crazy in light of this revelation about his character, like showing up on the set one day wearing a thong and flashy spangled boots---oh my. I wish!( HP6 is currently being filmed in Britain.)

In Book 7 however things take a turn. We find out many things that change Dumbledore's character for the worse; in the final book he emerges as a very complex character with a troubled past, from, it appears, a very troubled family, instead of just a kindly old man. Most mysterious of all is that when he was 17 Dumbledore had an unrequited love affair with a brilliant 21-yr old fellow student named Gillert Grindlewald who dazzled him with Mein-Kampf like teachings about pure-bloods and power. Dumbledore probably didn't believe half of it, but he was in love and followed his teachings blindly. He would have done anything for Gillert. Mentors? Grindelwald was the mentor. But as it says the feelings weren't returned. There was all sorts of complicated stuff that ultimately involved the death of Dumbledore's sister and his later taking a trip around the world with another student, Eliphias Doge, who, it can be inferred, was more amenable to a relationship. Moreover, since he held himself responsible for his sister's untimely death, it could be argued that Dumbledore never apparently entering--so far as we know--any other lasting relationship, same--sex or not, was his way of doing penance for her death.

What's interesting about this is that some Harry Potter fans have suggested in recent discussions that in Jo Rowling's Wizarding World, the wizards are more tolerant of alternative lifestyles, conscious as they are of their own differences from Muggles, we ordinary folk, magic etc, esp living side by side with them. Well, that apparently isn't the case. Sometimes all too depressingly, Rowling has made her fictional world far too much like our own, even as it is different. This is a quality that many teen and adult fans of the BOOK series have come to love-and paradoxically, some critics of the MOVIES have increasingly come to hate. While readers can take comfort from the lessons to be drawn from people who are at once more and less real than ourselves, moviegoers, (critics reason) still prefer to be swept away in a totally escapist fantasy. In matters like this, honestly, I don't know. It depends on the subject, I guess.

In Chapter 2 of Book 7, one of the principal villains of the series, the tabloid journalist Rita Skeeter (I explain all this for the benefit of people like Irvine who haven't even seen the films) announces that following Dumbledore's death in Book 6, she is doing a new biography of him. This character was evidently Jo's modeling after "revisionist historians" like Tina Brown with Lady Di, that sort of thing. Rita makes the subtle suggestion (in poisonously sweet language that would make you vomit, b/c we hear it on the news every day) that Dumbledore had a dark secret and he wasn't the saint he was cracked up to be and his relationship with Harry was "unhealthy, even sinister" and the reason Dumbledore died was that Harry rose up and finally killed him after years of secret sexual abuse. The pedophile thing. (Harry was a witness to Dumbledore's death.) When Harry reads this article, he feels almost physically ill--though Rowling never says specifically what at. The "pedophile" accusations, or the rest? But the fact that at 16 Harry understands all this suggests Jo is far more mature about what to expose children to than many adults in the Muggle world appear to be. I get the feeling that if Harry was still 12 she'd have let him read the article too.

Of course, all this is suggested in the "coded language" we have all come to recognize on the subject. And we hate Rita even more b/c the information she forced out of her unwilling interviewee (via a spell) was essesinally correct. But not in the motives.

FYI, there's another reason the fundamentalist Christian wingnuts are hitting the ceiling. Rita Skeeter makes another innocous coded "suggestion" in that same chapter of Book 7: that Albus Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth, was tried and found guilty for the crime of bestiality--specifically with goats. In Book 5, in the Hog's Head Inn, Harry and friends briefly meet Aberforth, though they don't know it's him until 2 yrs later in Book 7, where he finally plays a important plot role at the end. (amusingly, in light of all this new revelation, in the Movie of Book 5, we briefly see him--and a goat. Would they have put this in NOW? The actual phrase Jo, through Rita, uses is something like "experimenting with goats" so you really can't tell from reading the book if she means bestiality. For all we know, it could have been that using animals to test new and experiemental magical spells on (similar to the way we use mice and monkeys in laboratories) was illegal in the wizarding world, and that's what he was banished and made an outcast for. That's what thought it meant.

However, between all the dark secrets about Dumbledore's family, and this latest speaking event with Jo, I can't be sure. The evangelicals are also hitting the ceiling because, besides the reply Jo gave to the fan who asked the question about Dumbledore ever falling in love, "(answer: "Well, I've always thought Dumbledore was gay, and that he was in love with Gillert Grindelwald"--cheers from the audience, then she said, "well, if I had known it would make you so happy, I'd have told you earlier!" I don't know about that, she knows Americans too well) Another fan asked her specifically what Aberforth was banished for. What did she mean with the goats.

To this Jo shut right up and gave absolutely no answer. She just asked for the next question. Which she usually never does--she always gives some kind of answer, even if it involved a plot secret from a later book, she'd always give at least a clue. The fact that Jo refused to address this question has led many to believe that Dumbldore's brother did commit bestiality. If so, THAT is quite shocking stuff for a kid's book. Things like this actually become more believable in light of things like Rowling's dark backstory about Dumbledore and Aberforth's younger sister, Ariana, whom Jo in not so coded language this time inferred was gang-raped by three young men at the age of 9 and she was damaged for life, physically and otherwise, by this and her complications from this also led to her death. Their father avenged this brutal act by going after the three men, killing them, and he later died in prison.

Charming family history. But you pity Dumbledore even more now.

Then on top of all this you now will have people reading things into Chapter 37, "King's Cross", a strange chapter where Harry has an out-of-body experience wherehe wakes up naked, hears a thumping noises, thinks he is hearing something "shameful", wishes for robes, instantly puts them on, and then who should walk in but Dumbledore and they have a long conversation. I can't get into what they say or what the thumping noise is b/c it involves the plot of the whole series, this is a key chapter----again this is for people like Irvine--Sick-minded puritanical types will read into this and say that this is a masturbation scene and that Harry secretly harbored feelings for Dumbledore all along and he was bi, he loved Dumbledore before Ginny or anyone else.

To which people like you, Irvine, would say, "SO WHAT?" and I agree, but we're talking about sexuality issues in kid's lit and the reason that the fundies are up in arms is that all this stuff just exploded in Book 7 almost out of nowhere, though if we go back through the books now we see she has dropped clues here and there. And sometimes it's off the mark, people DO read too much into it. Still, Jo did not prepare people for this, so even people who are open-minded or try to be like me it IS a bit of a shock! It will just take getting used to, that's all!

And regarding kid's lit--Disney has sanitized everything, but my God, if you go back and read the origional Andersen and Grimm's Tales, it would have had Freud crying in his beer. Wow! Talk about more stuff you can read into than the drop of a hat!!!!

Oh..I may as well suggest one more sexual metaphor in Harry Potter 7 that I'm shocked so few fans have picked upon. When Lily Evans, Harry's future mother, meets Snape for the first time. It's on a playground, 9-yr old Lily and her sister Petunia are playing in front of a large rosebush. She picks a rose, and calls to Petunia, "Look, see what I can do!" She uses magic to make the petals of the rose she is holding in her palm open and close, open and close. ( She is just learning that she has magical powers--Petunia does not.) She is still doing this, looking down at the flower, when out jumps 9-yr-old Severus Snape from the bush, where he has been hiding, "greedily" watching her. (Now, if this isn't a "vagina" metaphor"....in light of the fact that soon after, Snape teaches her about magic, he already has a crush on her, and later fallsin love with her....)
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