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Old 09-16-2008, 09:59 AM   #801
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..that many here are resorting to race baiting shows their desperation.

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Old 09-16-2008, 09:59 AM   #802
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hey, do you all remember the shrinking part of the Republican Party that uses their brains and their facts and their fancy degrees and that value knowin' stuff instead of thinking with their guts and feelin' good 'cause there's someone like me running for office?

they're kicking Palin under the bus:

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Why Experience Matters
By DAVID BROOKS

Philosophical debates arise at the oddest times, and in the heat of this election season, one is now rising in Republican ranks. The narrow question is this: Is Sarah Palin qualified to be vice president? Most conservatives say yes, on the grounds that something that feels so good could not possibly be wrong. But a few commentators, like George Will, Charles Krauthammer, David Frum and Ross Douthat demur, suggesting in different ways that she is unready.

The issue starts with an evaluation of Palin, but does not end there. This argument also is over what qualities the country needs in a leader and what are the ultimate sources of wisdom.

There was a time when conservatives did not argue about this. Conservatism was once a frankly elitist movement. Conservatives stood against radical egalitarianism and the destruction of rigorous standards. They stood up for classical education, hard-earned knowledge, experience and prudence. Wisdom was acquired through immersion in the best that has been thought and said.

But, especially in America, there has always been a separate, populist, strain. For those in this school, book knowledge is suspect but practical knowledge is respected. The city is corrupting and the universities are kindergartens for overeducated fools.

The elitists favor sophistication, but the common-sense folk favor simplicity. The elitists favor deliberation, but the populists favor instinct.

This populist tendency produced the term-limits movement based on the belief that time in government destroys character but contact with grass-roots America gives one grounding in real life. And now it has produced Sarah Palin.

Palin is the ultimate small-town renegade rising from the frontier to do battle with the corrupt establishment. Her followers take pride in the way she has aroused fear, hatred and panic in the minds of the liberal elite. The feminists declare that she’s not a real woman because she doesn’t hew to their rigid categories. People who’ve never been in a Wal-Mart think she is parochial because she has never summered in Tuscany.

Look at the condescension and snobbery oozing from elite quarters, her backers say. Look at the endless string of vicious, one-sided attacks in the news media. This is what elites produce. This is why regular people need to take control.

And there’s a serious argument here. In the current Weekly Standard, Steven Hayward argues that the nation’s founders wanted uncertified citizens to hold the highest offices in the land. They did not believe in a separate class of professional executives. They wanted rough and rooted people like Palin.

I would have more sympathy for this view if I hadn’t just lived through the last eight years. For if the Bush administration was anything, it was the anti-establishment attitude put into executive practice.

And the problem with this attitude is that, especially in his first term, it made Bush inept at governance. It turns out that governance, the creation and execution of policy, is hard. It requires acquired skills. Most of all, it requires prudence.

What is prudence? It is the ability to grasp the unique pattern of a specific situation. It is the ability to absorb the vast flow of information and still discern the essential current of events — the things that go together and the things that will never go together. It is the ability to engage in complex deliberations and feel which arguments have the most weight.

How is prudence acquired? Through experience. The prudent leader possesses a repertoire of events, through personal involvement or the study of history, and can apply those models to current circumstances to judge what is important and what is not, who can be persuaded and who can’t, what has worked and what hasn’t.

Experienced leaders can certainly blunder if their minds have rigidified (see: Rumsfeld, Donald), but the records of leaders without long experience and prudence is not good. As George Will pointed out, the founders used the word “experience” 91 times in the Federalist Papers. Democracy is not average people selecting average leaders. It is average people with the wisdom to select the best prepared.

Sarah Palin has many virtues. If you wanted someone to destroy a corrupt establishment, she’d be your woman. But the constructive act of governance is another matter. She has not been engaged in national issues, does not have a repertoire of historic patterns and, like President Bush, she seems to compensate for her lack of experience with brashness and excessive decisiveness.

The idea that “the people” will take on and destroy “the establishment” is a utopian fantasy that corrupted the left before it corrupted the right. Surely the response to the current crisis of authority is not to throw away standards of experience and prudence, but to select leaders who have those qualities but not the smug condescension that has so marked the reaction to the Palin nomination in the first place.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:00 AM   #803
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..that many here are resorting to race baiting shows their desperation.

<>


so says someone who suddenly found feminism on August 29th, 2008.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:11 AM   #804
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so says someone who suddenly found feminism on August 29th, 2008.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:16 AM   #805
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
hey, do you all remember the shrinking part of the Republican Party that uses their brains and their facts and their fancy degrees and that value knowin' stuff instead of thinking with their guts and feelin' good 'cause there's someone like me running for office?

they're kicking Palin under the bus:
It's nice to see some Republican honesty for a change.

The fact is, due to McCain's age, his experiences in the military, and his health problems, if elected, this woman stands a very real chance of being president. Knowing all the news - not unfounded rumours, but real, factual news - that has come out about her, it baffles me that anyone on either side of the political spectrum could be comfortable with this choice.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:32 AM   #806
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It's nice to see some Republican honesty for a change.

The fact is, due to McCain's age, his experiences in the military, and his health problems, if elected, this woman stands a very real chance of being president. Knowing all the news - not unfounded rumours, but real, factual news - that has come out about her, it baffles me that anyone on either side of the political spectrum could be comfortable with this choice.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:36 AM   #807
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apparently the right defines feminism differentlly from the left.

from the right's perspective a feminist is a woman who can stand on her own 2 feet, be pro life, call out corruption even in her own party and do something positive about it, and never be afraid to take own the good ol boys network even in her own party.

from what i read here, a feminist has to be pro abortion, not pro life, otherwise she's not a feminist which is very sad and a narrow view of womanhood.

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Old 09-16-2008, 10:44 AM   #808
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from what i read here, a feminist has to be pro abortion, not pro life, otherwise she's not a feminist which is very sad and a narrow view of womanhood.

<>
A feminist doesn't attempt to limit the reproductive choices of other women. Period.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:47 AM   #809
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from what i read here, a feminist has to be pro abortion, not pro life,
I would change that to being pro-choice. As in, a feminist should be against laws that would place control over womens' bodies. (Edit: VP beat me to the punch!)

I know there are a shitload of definitions/opinions of what feminism is, but I have a really hard time saying that someone who wants to decide what happens with my body is a feminist.

Just because a woman has some measure of success and power doesn't automatically make her a feminist. It just makes her successful and/or powerful.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:50 AM   #810
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you girls made my point, thank u.



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Old 09-16-2008, 10:54 AM   #811
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What point did we make? That the Republicans have co-opted the term and are falsely using it in order to appear hip and cool and concerned with women's issues?

Please.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:57 AM   #812
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^^ What she said.

It's a better response than the eye-rolling I was doing.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:05 AM   #813
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Revoke my feminist card -- I like Palin


September 16, 2008

BY MICHAEL SNEED Sun-Times Columnist
Hmmm. Maybe . . . I am not a feminist after all.

Maybe . . . working in a man's world for 42 years and busting my butt to beat them up the ladder deletes me from the feminist category.

Perhaps . . . struggling to be a good single mom in a very married world -- yet meeting my five-day-a-week column deadline -- doesn't earn me a feminist handle either.

Certainly . . . because I'm not appalled or sickened or shocked by Sarah Palin's stealing the thunder from Obama the orator, I am not a feminist.

Give me a break.

I'm tired of women working hard for a hammer that never breaks the glass ceiling; disgusted when Hillary Clinton, an incredibly capable, brilliant woman, lost the fight of her life; disheartened by other countries throughout the free world being led by formidable women before America is.

Only this time, it was an amazing orator named Barack Obama who was stealing our thunder . . . and I was . . . well, you know. Pissed.

And then along came Palin, a woman of the tundra who could be America's next best frontier story -- and I was pleasantly surprised.

Hell, I was delighted.

So what if she's a Republican? I tend to vote for Republican presidents.

So what if she didn't know the definition of the Bush Doctrine? Her performance was a Western draw. Bravery in tact. But no one shot.

So I asked myself -- what fault is there in admiring a woman who is against abortion -- even though I believe in freedom of choice?

What's wrong with huge respect for a woman who chose to give birth to a Down syndrome child knowing full well what was in store for her and her family?

And if appreciating a woman who chose a husband who supports her ladder-climbing skill puts me in the non-feminist category, well maybe that's where I belong.

To be blunt, Palin is like a zephyr blowing across the prairie with a retro hairdo tied back like a sheaf of wheat.

She is real
. She is rural. She may not be a brilliant tactician, but she's got street sense. Palin is so unlike the very controlled Hillary Clinton, who would never be caught dead in red heels.

Thus, it now appears Palin has emerged as "everywoman" to a huge portion of our female population; a woman never really identified with what we thought was our quintessential role model -- a highly educated woman who wears tailored suits, whose voice is never shrill and who has a husband who makes more than she does.

I don't know what perfume Palin wears, but to me she smells of the soil.

Our huge land once had the call of the frontier for a new start -- and Alaska became the last of it.

Palin's kind of grit and savvy is akin to a frontier story: a young woman who was raised in a land of big sky and the midnight sun, a metaphor of sorts for being able to spot trouble a long way away.

In the next two months, Palin may be able to forge a hammer big enough to crack the glass ceiling. Maybe not.

And no Palin moose gun may be powerful enough to pursue critics of John McCain, who -- rightly or wrongly -- may be tarnished by our economy.

But McCain did choose a tough and savvy woman as his running mate . . . and it is refreshing to think, at least for a while, a little air from the Alaskan aerie wafted through America.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:07 AM   #814
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i think a feminist can absolutely be anti-choice, or pro-forced-pregnancy.

however, i think that much of the anti-choice movement is deeply, profoundly sexist.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:12 AM   #815
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i think a feminist can absolutely be anti-choice, or pro-forced-pregnancy.
I disagree. I think that a feminist can certainly be opposed to having an abortion herself, but would not take that choice away from others.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:28 AM   #816
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
Revoke my feminist card -- I like Palin


September 16, 2008

BY MICHAEL SNEED Sun-Times Columnist
Hmmm. Maybe . . . I am not a feminist after all.

Maybe . . . working in a man's world for 42 years and busting my butt to beat them up the ladder deletes me from the feminist category.

Perhaps . . . struggling to be a good single mom in a very married world -- yet meeting my five-day-a-week column deadline -- doesn't earn me a feminist handle either.

Certainly . . . because I'm not appalled or sickened or shocked by Sarah Palin's stealing the thunder from Obama the orator, I am not a feminist.

Give me a break.

I'm tired of women working hard for a hammer that never breaks the glass ceiling; disgusted when Hillary Clinton, an incredibly capable, brilliant woman, lost the fight of her life; disheartened by other countries throughout the free world being led by formidable women before America is.

Only this time, it was an amazing orator named Barack Obama who was stealing our thunder . . . and I was . . . well, you know. Pissed.

And then along came Palin, a woman of the tundra who could be America's next best frontier story -- and I was pleasantly surprised.

Hell, I was delighted.

So what if she's a Republican? I tend to vote for Republican presidents.

So what if she didn't know the definition of the Bush Doctrine? Her performance was a Western draw. Bravery in tact. But no one shot.

So I asked myself -- what fault is there in admiring a woman who is against abortion -- even though I believe in freedom of choice?

What's wrong with huge respect for a woman who chose to give birth to a Down syndrome child knowing full well what was in store for her and her family?

And if appreciating a woman who chose a husband who supports her ladder-climbing skill puts me in the non-feminist category, well maybe that's where I belong.

To be blunt, Palin is like a zephyr blowing across the prairie with a retro hairdo tied back like a sheaf of wheat.

She is real
. She is rural. She may not be a brilliant tactician, but she's got street sense. Palin is so unlike the very controlled Hillary Clinton, who would never be caught dead in red heels.

Thus, it now appears Palin has emerged as "everywoman" to a huge portion of our female population; a woman never really identified with what we thought was our quintessential role model -- a highly educated woman who wears tailored suits, whose voice is never shrill and who has a husband who makes more than she does.

I don't know what perfume Palin wears, but to me she smells of the soil.

Our huge land once had the call of the frontier for a new start -- and Alaska became the last of it.

Palin's kind of grit and savvy is akin to a frontier story: a young woman who was raised in a land of big sky and the midnight sun, a metaphor of sorts for being able to spot trouble a long way away.

In the next two months, Palin may be able to forge a hammer big enough to crack the glass ceiling. Maybe not.

And no Palin moose gun may be powerful enough to pursue critics of John McCain, who -- rightly or wrongly -- may be tarnished by our economy.

But McCain did choose a tough and savvy woman as his running mate . . . and it is refreshing to think, at least for a while, a little air from the Alaskan aerie wafted through America.

What a bunch of bullshit that is! Why are people obsessed with electing someone who is "just like me?" Gosh, Sarah Palin is a "real" "everywoman!" Oooooh, Sarah Palin smells like the soil! Oh my, it's like a frontier story!

What the hell kind of idiocy is that????

If you want brain surgery, you don't ask your neighbor to do it.

If I want a POTUS or VP, I don't go ask my friend's mom's bookclub pal to run.


Honest to God, the Republicans have been dumbing America down for the last decade. If there's any good reason to defeat these idiots, that's it.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:31 AM   #817
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What a bunch of bullshit that is! Why are people obsessed with electing someone who is "just like me?" Gosh, Sarah Palin is "real" "everywoman!" Oooooh, Sarah Palin smells like the soil! Oh my, it's like a frontier story!



.


Honest to God, the Republicans have been dumbing down America for the last decade. If there's any good reason to defeat these idiots, that's it.
bill clinton was "just like everyone else".

we gave him a chance after the confessed infildelities, and he still let us down.

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:32 AM   #818
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i always presumed that feminism was about fundamentally altering (destroying) the sex-based power structure of modern society, in both public and private life.

does sarah palin believe that she should submit to her husband? hard to say...
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:33 AM   #819
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Who calls who a feminist is completely irrelevant to voting.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:35 AM   #820
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bill clinton was "just like everyone else".

<>
But was he elected because of that? Or because he appeared less out of touch than Bush (recall the famous "what would your presidency mean for me" fiasco)?


Seriously, diamond. If you honestly use crap like this article to choose who should lead this country..... I don't know what to say that wouldn't get me banned.
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