Is it starting?

[BVS]

It's hard to explain how Christians are getting slapped on the knee, so to speak, when it seems you have no problem with removing the 10 Commandments from public buildings, fussing over God references fron The Declaration of Independence, unconstitutional lawyers seeing a "glow" in our constitution that suits their own agenda, taking "under God" out of our Pledge of Allegience, whining about the word "blessings" being in the constitution, all this crap isn't exactly "persecution", but I see it as steps in the wrong direction. I see it as an ongoing war that isn't exactly mono y mono, but some find that it has potential to be so. I'm surprised you don't see it that way. Our country isn't supposed to enforce Christianity as the official religion people must follow by law, BUT our Bill of Rights, Constitution, and Declaration of Independence would not be the same had it not been inspired by Judeo-Christian principles.

Nobody is literally being persecuted, but I doubt that allowing a very limited amount of religious rights is going to make most people happy. Some people are extremely upset - could be overreacting - or maybe even not - at the direction this country is headed. Some feel that you have to stand up for your beliefs, just as our founding fathers did when they fought for you and me to give us a free country. You may not see the beginning of anything, but I see potential for emotions to get out of hand.

I understand where you are coming from, but I also understand where they are coming from. The 10 commandments don't beling in the courthouse. Not all 10 commandments are written into law. The 10 Cs are a Judeo-Christian doctrine. Can you imagine how a Muslim going to court would feel if they had to plea their innosense to a judge that had placed this monument? They may not feel like it will be the "blindest" judgement.

Both sides take it too far. One side is pushing too hard to get their beliefs in the courtroom and the other is pushing too hard to get any mention of it out.

But it's not persecution, by any means.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I can agree with that. The pushing and shoving has to slow down.

 

[thacraic]

Yes that isn't the case, sorry it wasn't clear.




Sorry, I did sit their and ponder the wording but just couldn't think of another way to word it. I think anyone who belongs to the largest, easiest to worship in, most accesible, religion in the country and they are saying they are being persecuted isn't seeing the big picture. Sorry that's just how I see it. No one's given me specifice examples. When 82% of the country is Christian I'm trying to figure out who it is that's persecuting you. The other 18% or is it coming from within your own camp?

Hiya BVS,

Well you should have ignored this post anyway. I re-read it today and I just came across as really nasty and mean. So my apologies for it. And when I have more time, I will do a little list of examples of persecution in media and the arts. They are actually numerous.

At any rate, collectively, the amount of time I have spent here in FYM this weekend (from Friday evening to today) has totalled something like 5 hours!! I need to get my priorities straight lol. My husband is as they say....not amused.

So I am off now to do my normal daily things like cleaning and shopping, and working on the poems my kids are going to recite later this week. "Silver" by Walter de la Mare for the 7 year old and "Love and Friendship" by Emily Dickinson for the 9 year old.

I suggested that at least one of them do "see here you", one of my favorite poems, but they said they didn't get it and they would get in trouble for some of the words in it. te he he.

Take care,

Carrie

 

[Bono's shades]

A lot of people in the highest posts of government in the United States, including the President, are Christians who have no problem discussing their beliefs openly. In fact, the U.S. has about a snowflake's chance in hell of electing a person who openly declares themselves an athiest. Religious fundamentalists are becoming more and more powerful, more organized, and more aggressive in trying to impose their beliefs on others every day. And people claim American Christians are being "persecuted"?? Give me a break. I'm a Christian and I've never felt the least bit persecuted for my beliefs - maybe because I don't demand that others share them. Yes, I believe Christians are supposed to bear witness to their faith, but there's a difference between sharing your faith and shoving it down someone's throat - especially via the goverment.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Shades - I don't think anyone is really being persecuted either. I do see a lot of backlash though from the ACLU and so forth that riles up the religious fundamentalists. As long as the government isn't force feeding a faith, and I mean forcing it on citizens, I don't think there's any problem with the government promoting faith-based programs in order to help alcoholics and drug addicts beat their addictions.

 

[Liesje]

As I've stated before, I think the term "fundamentalist" is still being thrown around WAY too much. Bush is religious yes, and conservative at that (but not even that much really), but a fundamentalist? Absolutely not! Conservative right does not equal fundamentalism. I've lived in a large, religious, conservative community my entire life and I can honestly say I've never met a true religious fundamentalist. I'm a pretty conservative Christian myself and I can relate to a true fundamentalist about as well as I can relate to a Satan worshiper!

 

[indra]

The thing in question is not whether people are persecuted for thier beliefs or lifestyle. The thing that seems to be denied is that Christians are.

I disagree about both statements you made in regards to the Christian views of homosexuality and Creation. But I would never say you or anyone else who holds those views are ignorant because of them.

I actually would disagree that Christians in this country (the US) are persecuted for their belief. They are occasionally lampooned, but persecuted? Nah, far from persecuted -- celebrated, in fact, not persecuted. I think many mistake lampooning for persecution.

I stand by my statements that what you call "traditional Christian" view of homosexuals is homophobic, and that the belief in creation as stated in Genesis is literally true is ignorant. I don't think they are any more of a slam to one who holds those beliefs than calling homosexuality a sin or an abomination is to a homosexual.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

You mean to tell me you wouldn't be thought of contemptously if you said you were a virgin? (In the states it seems, that would be a confession)

 

[indra]

You mean to tell me you wouldn't be thought of contemptously if you said you were a virgin? (In the states it seems, that would be a confession)

Many people are virgins, not just Christians (and yes, in the US). Again, you might be lampooned, but persecuted? And many woman are thought of (and spoken of) contemptously, if they are not (ie., slut, 'ho, etc.).

Virginity is not exclusive territory of Christians (or the religious in general).

 

[Angela Harlem]

I actually would disagree that Christians in this country (the US) are persecuted for their belief. They are occasionally lampooned, but persecuted? Nah, far from persecuted -- celebrated, in fact, not persecuted. I think many mistake lampooning for persecution.

I stand by my statements that what you call "traditional Christian" view of homosexuals is homophobic, and that the belief in creation as stated in Genesis is literally true is ignorant. I don't think they are any more of a slam to one who holds those beliefs than calling homosexuality a sin or an abomination is to a homosexual.

Ah, now see you need to be careful with this kind of thing indra because calling someone on their lack of acceptance for someone's homosexuality is in turn offending that person's religion. And that's just not cricket in this forum - apparently. Yet...the point that this belief actually HURTS people, offends those who might be homosexual, offends those who have friends/family who are, or grates on those who simply have different views, needs to take a back seat and why? Because to call on it actually offends someone's religious beliefs.

To explain as I am often misinterpreted in this forum, I am sarcastically agreeing with indra here and fail to understand yet again why it doesn't bother some Christian folk that what they believe is harmful.. It's hurtful. Exclusionary. Breeds non acceptance. Promotes seperation. It flies against what Christianity claims to be all about. Will Christianity ever deal with it's own glaring hypocrisy? I don't reckon people have the right to cry this offends their religious beliefs until they think about what their beliefs might be doing to others.

It's so painfully simple.

 

[cardosino]

Ah, now see you need to be careful with this kind of thing indra because calling someone on their lack of acceptance for someone's homosexuality is in turn offending that person's religion. And that's just not cricket in this forum - apparently. Yet...the point that this belief actually HURTS people, offends those who might be homosexual, offends those who have friends/family who are, or grates on those who simply have different views, needs to take a back seat and why? Because to call on it actually offends someone's religious beliefs.

To explain as I am often misinterpreted in this forum, I am sarcastically agreeing with indra here and fail to understand yet again why it doesn't bother some Christian folk that what they believe is harmful.. It's hurtful. Exclusionary. Breeds non acceptance. Promotes seperation. It flies against what Christianity claims to be all about. Will Christianity ever deal with it's own glaring hypocrisy? I don't reckon people have the right to cry this offends their religious beliefs until they think about what their beliefs might be doing to others.

It's so painfully simple.

I loook forward to the same critiques of the Q'uran and it's calls to Jihad

 

[Angela Harlem]

Here's a list of problems with that particular response:
1. I dont recall ever stating an opinion that the Q'uran is free from any kind of contradiction or hypocrisy
2. The Q'uran itself has bugger all to do with Christianity
3. Moving aside to point out flaws in another do not address the points I made, it's redirecting the spotlight really

 

[BVS]

Here's a list of problems with that particular response:
1. I dont recall ever stating an opinion that the Q'uran is free from any kind of contradiction or hypocrisy
2. The Q'uran itself has bugger all to do with Christianity
3. Moving aside to point out flaws in another do not address the points I made, it's redirecting the spotlight really

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[thacraic]

blah... im still screwing up on my post...

 

[thacraic]

Here's a list of problems with that particular response:
1. I dont recall ever stating an opinion that the Q'uran is free from any kind of contradiction or hypocrisy
2. The Q'uran itself has bugger all to do with Christianity
3. Moving aside to point out flaws in another do not address the points I made, it's redirecting the spotlight really

On point one I wouldn't know. Point two I agree to an extent. Point three... I see this happening a lot. Points are made, then a side thought is what is addressed, leading to a completely different debate. Its seems to be a very evasive means of discourse.

But having said that, I think cardsosino was just making a comment on people's willingness to criticize views which are Christian and their reluctance to criticize anything that isn't.

 

[BVS]

But having said that, I think cardsosino was just making a comment on people's willingness to criticize views which are Christian and their reluctance to criticize anything that isn't.

Something that comes up here a lot actually. Sometimes it is just a means to which to change the subject because the person can't defend the comments and other times it stands very true.

Why do you think their is reluctance to criticize other religions? Possibly because most people in here who have a religious background it's in the Judeo-Christian? Or is that it's ultimately hypocritical to point out the flaws in another religion when you haven't focused on the flaws of your own first? Or is it being a victim of the PC world we live in? But then you just go back to playing victim again.

It's probably a little bit all three, but it's definately not a way to debate this subject.

 

[indra]

But having said that, I think cardsosino was just making a comment on people's willingness to criticize views which are Christian and their reluctance to criticize anything that isn't.

Perhaps if I lived in a nation that was ruled by Muslim leaders and where Mulsims were given respect and admiration I and others outside of that sphere did not receive, I would have the same criticism of them. But I don't. Besides, I have to start somewhere.

Perhaps if more of the active posters on this board were Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., the discussions would focus more on those religions. But since most people here have a Judeo-Christian background, that's where the discussion is going to go.

 

[enggirl]

Not really answering the question though, yes, it's the State's recognition of it that gives us the tax breaks; but the concept of marriage IS intrinsically a religious one.

AS far as I'm concerned, if gays want the same right as married couples, that's fine. The fact that I may not see it as a true "marriage" won't lessen it one iota, my opinion isn't what matters.


Priorities.

I'm just gonna jump in here and then jump back out....but I was under the impression that marriage was NOT originally a religious concept but rather a financial/social and even political one. While I cannot give specific sources (but I can do some research if need be), the concept of marriage was to insure that a man's (ahem) offspring were, as well as he could tell (because without DNA tests there is NO sure way to know!), HIS offspring. And, it was important, in a patriarchial society, for one man's son to inherit that man's estate and/or social position upon his death. Marriage to a woman (even to more than one) ensured that the children were "his" and that he had control over his wife and children as over his animals and land.

The book Sex in History is a pretty interesting read and delves into many different cultures and how social mores develop as they pertain to sex, gender and identity.

OK, jumping back out now.

 

[Angela Harlem]

On point one I wouldn't know. Point two I agree to an extent. Point three... I see this happening a lot. Points are made, then a side thought is what is addressed, leading to a completely different debate. Its seems to be a very evasive means of discourse.

But having said that, I think cardsosino was just making a comment on people's willingness to criticize views which are Christian and their reluctance to criticize anything that isn't.

I can appreciate that, and agree wholeheartedly that it is an evasive means of discourse. it's actually frustrating because the more vocal Christian members of this forum are now silent. Why? Are you all stumped? Have I pushed you back against a wall? I didn't mean to, I just want some answers. Answers which are never forthcoming in this forum and certainly never in life when discussions take place. I am not alone with the perceived hyprocisy I'm viewing in this religion. And it's never addressed. It's disheartening. Especially when the silence will soon enough end and on a different topic I'll be 'gently' reminded that I am on the burning path to hell and my future and past is littered with sin. There's certainly a lot of compassion in Christianity, there's a lot of acceptance and open loving arms. But it's a rather selective process.

Call me a sinner all you like. one thing I will never be is unaccepting and passively encourage exclusion of any fellow person in anything in my life. Let us all love and live how we choose. I dont care if Christianity wallows in it's hatred. Unfortunately and tragically, many homosexual folk do. It's a fucking shame they are made to feel as they do - persecuted.

 

[AcrobatMan]

This Christanity bashing must stop.

People have got tired of Bashing Americans - so they are Bashing Christianity.

Dont always go in for fashion.

For the sake of Steve ( who I believe is a Christian)

AcrobatMan

 

[BVS]

This Christanity bashing must stop.

People have got tired of Bashing Americans - so they are Bashing Christianity.

Dont always go in for fashion.

For the sake of Steve ( who I believe is a Christian)

AcrobatMan

Seriously what is this about? Who is bashing Christianity?

Have you seen the post on Virgin birth, Is Jesus the only way, etc. no one is bashing Christianity. These are very hospitable debates. You may find this surprising but I would say the majority of the people in this forum are Christian.

 

[indra]

This Christanity bashing must stop.

People have got tired of Bashing Americans - so they are Bashing Christianity.

Dont always go in for fashion.

For the sake of Steve ( who I believe is a Christian)

AcrobatMan

I don't see that Christianity is being bashed at all. Discussion is NOT the same as bashing...a distinction a lot of people do not seem to get.

And MY Steve (the REAL Steve, by the way ), isn't Christian. So there you go.

 

[AcrobatMan]

well read all the posts...and try to find out adjectives used .

Its not OK.

Its simply inappropriate !!

 

[AcrobatMan]

the REAL Steve

Your Steve might be a good singer..but thats all about him I guess

 

[BVS]

well read all the posts...and try to find out adjectives used .

Its not OK.

Its simply inappropriate !!

Oh no specifics...

 

[indra]

Your Steve might be a good singer..but thats all about him I guess

Apparently you've never had a chat with my Steve...that man can make me feel stupid (not intentionally, although I'm sure he could if he wanted to), and there aren't many people who can do that. One of the most intelligent people I've ever met.

And no one is bashing Christians. It is discussion, passionate, discussion, but not bashing. Bashing implies mindlessness and violence or violent intent...there is none of that. There are strong differences of opinion though. But this is a discussion forum, so that is only to be expected.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Christian bashing may be fun, but watching the responses to it is even funner.

 

[AcrobatMan]

the counter-response for those responses are even funnier

 

[AcrobatMan]

indra, whats IQ of your Steve...170 ???

 

[thacraic]

Perhaps if I lived in a nation that was ruled by Muslim leaders and where Mulsims were given respect and admiration I and others outside of that sphere did not receive, I would have the same criticism of them. But I don't. Besides, I have to start somewhere.

Perhaps if more of the active posters on this board were Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., the discussions would focus more on those religions. But since most people here have a Judeo-Christian background, that's where the discussion is going to go.

Hiya indra and BVS as well. I address both of you because you both said the same thing.

I didn't pose it as a question. I didn't ask WHY it happens. I just made a simple observation as to possibly why cardosino was pointing it out. But both yours and BVS' replies confirm that it does in fact happen.