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thacraic said:


Hiya UnforgettableLemon,

You must mean the non-Sunni muslims I take it?

Interestingly, they also said that in most places, neither Islamic group realized that there was tension until we told them there was
 
cardosino said:


Lost sight of what ?

Of everything. They are whining about not having monuments in the courtroom and two men getting married while the poor are still poor and nations are dying off of AIDS.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Of everything. They are whining about not having monuments in the courtroom and two men getting married while the poor are still poor and nations are dying off of AIDS.


:up:

which would Jesus care more about?

then again, saving the huddled, starving masses who don't really look like you and me isn't nearly as much fun as imagining subversion and then donning your cloak of righteousness to battle imaginary internal enemies.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Of everything. They are whining about not having monuments in the courtroom and two men getting married while the poor are still poor and nations are dying off of AIDS.

My church, saddleback in Orange county, has given hundreds of thousands, if not millions of $$ in aid to African AIDS clinics, and routinely sends in volunteer teams. to help out, and lobbies actively even up to the George Bush level for support of debt relief and help for AIDS clinics (the head pastor is very influential, he has spoken abotu helping the poor on Dateline, Larry King, etc )

So, I guess you are maybe speaking for one or two christians, as opposed to hundreds of millions of them?

Way to make ignorant sweeping generalizations.
 
Irvine511 said:



:up:

which would Jesus care more about?


The African AIDS crisis.

Pastor of our church, when asked about what Jesus would be doing if he came back today ? "Probably working in an AIDS clinic"

It never ceases to amaze me how fans of a band who's driving force and inspiration is based on Christianity, can be so overwhelmingly ignorant about Christianity, whose fans will nto stand for bigotry towards homosexuals, will support Amnest, but will not hesitate to tar hundreds of millions of believers of a certain fait with the worst brush possible based upon the actions of an extreme few.

You are intellectually lazy, go look up how much money Christian charities and churches have given to the poor of the world this year, then come back and make your sweeping generalizations.
 
cardosino said:


My church, saddleback in Orange county, has given hundreds of thousands, if not millions of $$ in aid to African AIDS clinics, and routinely sends in volunteer teams. to help out, and lobbies actively even up to the George Bush level for support of debt relief and help for AIDS clinics (the head pastor is very influential, he has spoken abotu helping the poor on Dateline, Larry King, etc )

So, I guess you are maybe speaking for one or two christians, as opposed to hundreds of millions of them?

Way to make ignorant sweeping generalizations.


well, the one or two christians who purport to speak for most christians -- say, Robertson and Falwell -- are certainly guilty of this.

this is not to discount much of the wonderful work done by many churches, nor did we see Karl Rove working below the radar in rural Ohio and using charity and good will as a way to get out the Christian vote.

and let's not forget Bono's quote about his bus tour with Ashley Judd when they toured churches in middle America -- "it was like getting blood from a stone."
 
cardosino said:


The African AIDS crisis.

Pastor of our church, when asked about what Jesus would be doing if he came back today ? "Probably working in an AIDS clinic"

It never ceases to amaze me how fans of a band who's driving force and inspiration is based on Christianity, can be so overwhelmingly ignorant about Christianity, whose fans will nto stand for bigotry towards homosexuals, will support Amnest, but will not hesitate to tar hundreds of millions of believers of a certain fait with the worst brush possible based upon the actions of an extreme few.

You are intellectually lazy, go look up how much money Christian charities and churches have given to the poor of the world this year, then come back and make your sweeping generalizations.


you know what -- i'm not even going to respond.

go feel good about yourself, and wrap that blanket of righteousness around yourself.

and go check out what Bono has to say about the Church and about Christians -- not God or Jesus or Christianity. he makes distinctions, as do we, and you accuse others of an ignorance that drips from your post.
 
Irvine511 said:



well, the one or two christians who purport to speak for most christians -- say, Robertson and Falwell -- are certainly guilty of this.

OK, so that's 2.

They speak for most Christians in the same way OBL speaks for most muslims.

Ever hear of people like Jim Wallis, or The Pope ? They speak for many Christians too.

Cherry pick away though....or look at this link, at least read the transcript with Wallis/Sharpton/Falwell, don't worry, you won't get converted or anything, I just honestly think you'll find it interesting.

http://www.sojo.net/

Irvine511 said:

this is not to discount much of the wonderful work done by many churches,



But the wonderful work you refer to is indeed tossed ignorantly by the wayside when most non-Christians in here discuss Christians.
 
cardosino said:
But the wonderful work you refer to is indeed tossed ignorantly by the wayside when most non-Christians in here discuss Christians.


hmmmm .... "Hello, pot? This is the Kettle calling. You're black"

"Cherry pick away though"

"It never ceases to amaze me how fans of a band who's driving force and inspiration is based on Christianity, can be so overwhelmingly ignorant about Christianity"

"You are intellectually lazy"

"Way to make ignorant sweeping generalizations."
 
Irvine511 said:



you know what -- i'm not even going to respond.

go feel good about yourself, and wrap that blanket of righteousness around yourself.


I'm not as righteous as I'd like to be, I'm sorry you don't like the hypocrisy being pointed out.


Irvine511 said:

and go check out what Bono has to say about the Church and about Christians -- not God or Jesus or Christianity. he makes distinctions, as do we, and you accuse others of an ignorance that drips from your post.

Poster on this forum: "Christians have lost sight"

Me: "of what"

Poster (and I paraphrase) "of everything, they are more concerned with the courtroom than they are in helping the poor"

Oh Yes, I see the distinctions being made and I see the high levels of tolerance being shown. Sorry I missed it the first time

Excuse me for getting upset when I see that, it was silly of to get upset when I saw the sweeping generalization being made.
 
Irvine511 said:



hmmmm .... "Hello, pot? This is the Kettle calling. You're black"

"Cherry pick away though"

"It never ceases to amaze me how fans of a band who's driving force and inspiration is based on Christianity, can be so overwhelmingly ignorant about Christianity"

"You are intellectually lazy"

"Way to make ignorant sweeping generalizations."

My bad.

I apologize for any offense, I should have qualified my statement.
 
cardosino said:


My bad.

I apologize for any offense, I should have qualified my statement.


assuming, of course, that the above quote isn't ironic or sarcastic, no worries. nuance, tone, and inflection are impossible on this forum, and i think we all wish we could come across in different ways.

i do of course agree with your resistance to being generalized about -- we all hate it, and i feel it very personally. i've lived as an American abroad, and i live as a semi-open gay man, so i feel your pain.

while i found next to nothing in my little parish growing up (i distinctly remember the priest giving a christmas sermon on how this was the time of year we should be nice to the "losers"), i realize that some people draw great strength from their religion, and are motivated to do work that they otherwise might not have the inner-strength to do.

what i, and others, i think, object to is how Political Christianity -- run by Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and others -- appears obsessed with homosexuality, while millions die of AIDS and starvation. i think what's going on is what happens whenever you have any "group" of people -- the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Fallwell blames 9-11 on "feminists, abortionists, pagans, and homosexuals" and he gets his fat mug on the news. i think you are 100% in the right to demand a distinction between this particular group, and yourself, and probably millions of others.
 
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Irvine511 said:



well, the one or two christians who purport to speak for most christians -- say, Robertson and Falwell -- are certainly guilty of this.

this is not to discount much of the wonderful work done by many churches, nor did we see Karl Rove working below the radar in rural Ohio and using charity and good will as a way to get out the Christian vote.

and let's not forget Bono's quote about his bus tour with Ashley Judd when they toured churches in middle America -- "it was like getting blood from a stone."

I don't like Robertson and Falwell at all, and I resent the hell out of their pretense to speak for all Christians. I suspect I'm not the only Christian in the U.S. who feels this way. Nope, if these guys represent me I'm a monkey's uncle.
 
Irvine511 said:



assuming, of course, that the above quote isn't ironic or sarcastic, no worries. nuance, tone, and inflection are impossible on this forum, and i think we all wish we could come across in different ways.

Nope, none of the above, but I do mean I should have qualified what I said, I believe many U2 fans in here are incredibly quick to pass judgement on Christians, which I find somewhat confusing given the fact that they're in here because they're U2 crazy, a band fuelled by faith, a band which preaches tolerance like no other before or since, at least preach it to such a wide audience anyway. It *seems* to me like the Christian community gets a lot less slack than any other "subdivision".

Irvine511 said:


what i, and others, i think, object to is how Political Christianity -- run by Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and others -- appears obsessed with homosexuality, while millions die of AIDS and starvation.


I can understand that too, but there are more reference to the poor in the Bible than almost any other subject, and I think you'll find that many think THAT is what should be focused on.


Of all worldwide major church groups, ony the Baptists came out in favour of supporting the Iraq war, every other group has come out against it.

However even in Baptist groups, a lot of good is done in terms of AIDS/Africa, but that's not very newsworthy.......
 
cardosino said:
However even in Baptist groups, a lot of good is done in terms of AIDS/Africa, but that's not very newsworthy.......

Yeah, that's probably one thing to consider, too-there's tons of religious people who do really nice things for others out there, but sadly, our news programs decide to focus on all the bad aspects of religion-the fighting, the killing, the discrimination that some religious people express-rather than the good 'cause it's more newsworthy, and so sadly it makes religious people in general look bad, when really it's only a few morons that are acting horrible. Not saying we shouldn't alert people to those out there who are committing awful crimes in the name of religion, 'cause we can't stop it if we don't hear about it, but we should also hear about the good stuff religious people do, too. I had a friend back in Iowa who was a Christian, and she was one of the sweetest people you could ever meet. She would've helped the poor in a heartbeat, I know she would've. And I know some religious people here that are very kind-hearted souls, too.

Also, people like Falwell, Robertson, and them, quite frankly, scare the hell out of me (heh, no pun intended...).

Angela
 
cardosino said:

I can understand that too, but there are more reference to the poor in the Bible than almost any other subject, and I think you'll find that many think THAT is what should be focused on.
.......


on this, i think we can all agree.

i do think you make an interesting point about U2 -- i've described this forum to non-fan (or, at least non-fanatical like me) individuals as "P.C. cause-heads meet fundamentalist Christians." yes, i'm being funny, but there's some truth to that. U2 is known for religion and politics, and while one certainly fuels the other in Bono's head and heart, it's not often the same for his fans. i also think Bono (now, at least, since he's much smarter now than in the 80s, i think) rejects Christians who resist modernity just as much as he rejects peaceniks who think all we need is love and a daisy in a soldier's rifle

oh well.

we're one but we're not the same, aren't we?
 
cardosino said:


My church, saddleback in Orange county, has given hundreds of thousands, if not millions of $$ in aid to African AIDS clinics, and routinely sends in volunteer teams. to help out, and lobbies actively even up to the George Bush level for support of debt relief and help for AIDS clinics (the head pastor is very influential, he has spoken abotu helping the poor on Dateline, Larry King, etc )

So, I guess you are maybe speaking for one or two christians, as opposed to hundreds of millions of them?

Way to make ignorant sweeping generalizations.

I'm glad your church is doing this more need to be doing this, but the sad thing is they aren't.


But the wonderful work you refer to is indeed tossed ignorantly by the wayside when most non-Christians in here discuss Christians.

If you are assuming I'm not a Christian because I speak the way I do you are absolutely wrong.

You asked me a question and I answered it. Any Christian in the US who thinks they are being persecuted is completely ignorant of what true persecution is. When I hear churches bitch about the courthouses, gay marriage, etc it makes my blood boil because one they have no place in these juridictions and two because they aren't doing enough "back home". Yes churches do a lot in this country I'm not denying that. But they aren't doing nearly enough. Trust me I've been to churches all over the country.

I'm not speaking for one or two. So be careful with your attacks.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Please give me an example of how Christians are persecuted here in the states? I'm very curious.

Hiya BVS,

I kinda answered this in a different post actually.

There are different levels of persecution. Verbal, physical, mental etc. The backlash against Christianity in the media, in the arts, and on online forums even, would be more or less verbal. It is perecution nonetheless. It does not however compare in anyway of course to what Christians in China endure on a daily basis.

I will for the record paste the actual definition of the word....

One entry found for persecute.


Main Entry: per·se·cute
Pronunciation: 'p&r-si-"kyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cut·ed; -cut·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French persecuter, back-formation from persecuteur persecutor, from Late Latin persecutor, from persequi to persecute, from Latin, to pursue, from per- through + sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER

I have to say, that the second definition would certainly apply to Christians here in the States.

Do you not see that as true? Honestly?

Take care,

Carrie
 
thacraic said:


Hiya BVS,

I kinda answered this in a different post actually.

There are different levels of persecution. Verbal, physical, mental etc. The backlash against Christianity in the media, in the arts, and on online forums even, would be more or less verbal. It is perecution nonetheless. It does not however compare in anyway of course to what Christians in China endure on a daily basis.

I will for the record paste the actual definition of the word....

One entry found for persecute.


Main Entry: per·se·cute
Pronunciation: 'p&r-si-"kyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cut·ed; -cut·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French persecuter, back-formation from persecuteur persecutor, from Late Latin persecutor, from persequi to persecute, from Latin, to pursue, from per- through + sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER

I have to say, that the second definition would certainly apply to Christians here in the States.

Do you not see that as true? Honestly?

Take care,

Carrie

Sorry that's laughable. Where's the media or the arts persecuting Christianity? Just don't see it.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


I'm glad your church is doing this more need to be doing this, but the sad thing is they aren't.


So that makes it OK to tar all Christians with the same brush ?

How much do Christians help vs. Jewish organizations ? Gay organizations ? Latino organizations ? etc.

I don't know either !

BonoVoxSupastar said:


If you are assuming I'm not a Christian because I speak the way I do you are absolutely wrong.


I didn't assume anything.

BonoVoxSupastar said:


You asked me a question and I answered it. Any Christian in the US who thinks they are being persecuted is completely ignorant of what true persecution is.


Mind-boggling !

There are Christians in the US who have coem from all walks of life, and all parts of the world. My old next door neigbor escaped persecution in Lebanon - How can you possibly say every christian in the US doesn't knwo about persecution ?


BonoVoxSupastar said:

When I hear churches bitch about the courthouses, gay marriage, etc it makes my blood boil because one they have no place in these jurisdictions


They have as much say as the next person

BonoVoxSupastar said:

and two because they aren't doing enough "back home".


Agreed. The Bible says more abotu helping the poor than any other single subject, and yet these radicals get all bent out of shape about stem cell research and other tangentially relevant items to their faith.

Fix the big stuff, then move on to the relatively trivial



BonoVoxSupastar said:

Yes churches do a lot in this country I'm not denying that. But they aren't doing nearly enough. Trust me I've been to churches all over the country.

I'm not speaking for one or two. So be careful with your attacks.

Ditto. When you choose to attack a group of people which is hundreds of million in number, you might want to sharpen the focus a wee bit.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Sorry that's laughable. Where's the media or the arts persecuting Christianity? Just don't see it.


Laughable? Come on now. I have steered clear of using that word many times in my responses. I may have let it slip once possibly? But I have really tried not to use it, even though there have been MANY cases in which I could have.

You mean to tell me that when you see Christians stating their views on things they are not made out to be biggots, or morons?
You think that Christians characters on television and in film are not potrayed in a manner which is completely misleading and and nowhere close to what and who REAL Chirstians are?

Furthermore, all entertainment aside, in the real world, traditional Christian views on homosexuality elicit the label homophobic hate monger. A traditional Christian view on the origins of the world elicits the label, ignorant backwoods moron. A traditonal Christian view on ANYTHING pretty much elicits labels and remarks that ARE by definition PERSECUTION.

Christians are made out to be foolish, ignorant intolerant people in song, film and television. If you don't see it I don't know what you are looking at.

At any rate we are are off to buy a Christmas tree...

Take care,

Carrie
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Sorry that's laughable. Where's the media or the arts persecuting Christianity? Just don't see it.

Perhaps you have become numb to it. Jesus is mentioned in the media (television & movies especially) all the time. Guess what percentage of those uses comply with the 3rd Commandment.

We are oversensatized to offending certain groups. But when it comes to respecting something reveared by the Christian, it's like slaughtering the pig on the alter.
 
cardosino said:


So that makes it OK to tar all Christians with the same brush ?
I think you are being a little too sensitive. No one is tarring anyone. I merely said that churches in general, including myself, need to step it up and quit wasting their time with gay marriage and the sorts.


cardosino said:

How much do Christians help vs. Jewish organizations ? Gay organizations ? Latino organizations ? etc.

I don't know either !

Who cares, this isn't a contest we are not to judge ourselves in accordance with others. Don't pull moral supremecy, you are just making it easier for someone to laugh at Christianity.




cardosino said:


Mind-boggling !

There are Christians in the US who have coem from all walks of life, and all parts of the world. My old next door neigbor escaped persecution in Lebanon - How can you possibly say every christian in the US doesn't knwo about persecution ?

Read my quote again. I said Christians in the US who really think we're being persecuted don't know what true persecution is.

I'm sure that your neigbor really knowing what true persecution is would never claim that Christians here in the states are persecuted. Your neighbor in fact would probably very much agree with me.

cardosino said:


They have as much say as the next person

What do they have a say in? To place momunments of their religion in a public courthouse, to make a ban on gay marriage? No they don't we have separation of church and state. Adultery is a sin but for some reason they aren't pushing for that ammendment, hmmmm I wonder why?
 
i'm sorry, perhaps we're all on different planets, but for christians to feel persecuted or lampooned by the media ... all i can say is welcome. we all feel that way. i think anyone who has a large stake in whatever "group" they choose to affiliate with and then form the basis of much of their identity on that is bound to be offended at some point. and, sorry, due to the power structure in this country where white, male, christians are in charge (and have ALWAYS been in charge), i don't think the discomfort some christians feel at being portrayed as backwards and anti-modern -- though, especialy when it comes to gender, sexuality, and orientation i'd argue that those lables are deserved for *some* christians -- please don't think for a moment it compares to what african-americans, latinos, gays, foreigners, or the French have to endure and have had to endure since, well, forever.

we're all sensitive to being lampooned, but we all should have a sense of humor about these things and pick and choose our battles well.

and remember: the Christians ARE in charge in this country. imagine if you weren't.
 
or, perhaps the fact that this is, supposedly, a secular liberal democracy makes it, by definition, offensive to Christians.

so be it.
 
thacraic said:


You mean to tell me that when you see Christians stating their views on things they are not made out to be biggots, or morons?
You think that Christians characters on television and in film are not potrayed in a manner which is completely misleading and and nowhere close to what and who REAL Chirstians are?

For every Flanders there's a 7th Heaven. Every race, religion, sex, etc has their stereotypes and their good characters on TV. No one is singling out Christians. Please.
thacraic said:

Furthermore, all entertainment aside, in the real world, traditional Christian views on homosexuality elicit the label homophobic hate monger. A traditional Christian view on the origins of the world elicits the label, ignorant backwoods moron. A traditonal Christian view on ANYTHING pretty much elicits labels and remarks that ARE by definition PERSECUTION.

Christians are made out to be foolish, ignorant intolerant people in song, film and television. If you don't see it I don't know what you are looking at.


Because some are. Some are foolish, some are filled with hate. Believe me, I've met them and it sickens me that they represent what I believe in. If Christians would stand up and get the Faldwells off of TV maybe we'd get somewhere. But then you have Billy Grahm who's very respected.

Once again every group has their points of attack. No one is singling you out. This is not persecution. Having people that don't believe in what you believe is not persecution. Try being Muslim in the US right now. Try being gay right now. Christianity is the safest religion to be in the US, we're not under any kind of persecution.
 
nbcrusader said:


Perhaps you have become numb to it. Jesus is mentioned in the media (television & movies especially) all the time. Guess what percentage of those uses comply with the 3rd Commandment.

We are oversensatized to offending certain groups. But when it comes to respecting something reveared by the Christian, it's like slaughtering the pig on the alter.

A little over dramatic aren't we? Can you give me some examples, because I'm not seeing it. Or maybe you are right, maybe I've become numb. But maybe if you were to give me an example I'd understand where you are coming from.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

Adultery is a sin but for some reason they aren't pushing for that ammendment, hmmmm I wonder why?

Good point. This is a topic worth discussing on it's own. Maybe we should have a thread....
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


For every Flanders there's a 7th Heaven. Every race, religion, sex, etc has their stereotypes and their good characters on TV. No one is singling out Christians. Please.


Because some are. Some are foolish, some are filled with hate. Believe me, I've met them and it sickens me that they represent what I believe in. If Christians would stand up and get the Faldwells off of TV maybe we'd get somewhere. But then you have Billy Grahm who's very respected.

Once again every group has their points of attack. No one is singling you out. This is not persecution. Having people that don't believe in what you believe is not persecution. Try being Muslim in the US right now. Try being gay right now. Christianity is the safest religion to be in the US, we're not under any kind of persecution.

Some "are" but the problem is, ALL are made to look like the some. That is kinda the POINT that was being made.

Of course people not believing the same as me or other Christians
isn't persecution! What kind of statement is that?

I talk to a friend of mine from Saudi Arabia daily, and when he and I discuss matters of faith, he doesn't attack me for believing as I do, nor I him. We obviously disagree on many things but we do not attack each other for our individual beliefs. That is because we engage in discourse. Now if I were to rip into him and say he was a total moron for thinking Jesus was merely a prophet and then begin mocking him that would be a form of VERBAL persecution (according to the actual definition) and I would safely say it would end our friendship.

Another thing, my daughter's friend is a Muslim and she was over for dinner the other night. After dinner, she was going to her church as she calls it, and was telling us about her faith. She had no fear of saying anything. Her mother has never mentioned feeling persecuted for her beliefs either. Also, a Jordanian friend of mine has never had problems since he moved here about a month before Sept. 11, 2001. He has never once had a word said to him about his religious beliefs or his ethnic origin. He "lovvvvvvvvves this country", as he would say.

I would say that in the time that I have known my Jordanian friend and my Indian Muslim friend, I have recieved more criticism, and personal attacks of my beliefs than they have of their's. So your theory that Muslims are being persecuted in this country and Christian are not , holds very little water with me in terms of my personal experiences.
 
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