Ireland bands smoking in the Pubs!

[STING2]

Ireland's Workplace Smoking Ban Starts


Mar 29, 1:50 PM (ET)

By SHAWN POGATCHNIK


DUBLIN, Ireland (AP) - Smokers hid in toilet stalls Monday as Ireland's ban on tobacco in the workplace - including the country's 10,000 usually smoky pubs - began its first divisive day.

Over lunchtime pints, Dublin friends and work mates argued over the merits of outlawing cigarettes indoors - until the smokers ducked outdoors for a chilly smoke on city sidewalks choked with exhaust fumes.

Health Minister Micheal Martin, who pushed for three years to ban workplace smoking, celebrated with anti-smoking activists at Bewley's tea house in downtown Dublin. He predicted other European nations would soon follow Ireland's example.

Ireland's sweeping nationwide ban is the world's strictest and goes well beyond statewide measures such as those in California and Delaware, which prohibit smoking in bars and restaurants

In the blue-collar pubs of north Dublin, Martin's crusade provoked both joy and fury.

"This is the worst idea any Irish government's ever had," said Gerry O'Connor, 32, a prison guard sitting sullenly in a corner of John Doyle's pub. He'd just been busted trying to sneak a smoke in the pub's lavatory.

"He stayed in the loo (restroom) too long. I smelled smoke, went in and could hear him puffing, puffing, puffing behind the door," said barman John Golding, who ordered the offending butt extinguished.

"I think this ban's a great idea. Until now I've gone home from work with a hacking cough and a sore throat from the smoke," said Golding, 21. "The ban means there's going to be a lot more people quitting. No more peer pressure over a pint."

Ireland's airwaves and barstool discussions have been dominated by debate over the rights and wrongs of smoking - its role in the easygoing pub atmosphere, versus the cancer and other deadly diseases it causes.

A government National Smokers Helpline has been inundated with calls from people seeking nicotine patches, counseling and other break-the-habit aids. A second line, opened Monday, fielded calls from people reporting pubs and other businesses violating the ban.

A few publicans vowed Monday to ignore the ban, saying they couldn't afford to turn away loyal smoking customers. The government has warned that its 41 environmental health inspectors will mount undercover inspections if pubs ignore the law, which carries a maximum fine of $3,700.

Opinion polls suggest a strong majority supports the ban in this country of 3.9 million, where about 30 percent of adults smoke. Feelings run deep on the issue.

The moment O'Connor started to bemoan the oppression he was suffering, his prison guard colleague Sean Donaghue, sitting at the next stool, bit his head off.

"You're talking a load of bollocks, Gerry. This is the greatest day Ireland's ever seen," said Donaghue, 55.

"I've already had one bypass operation, a coronary stent in an artery, I've got diabetes - I'm living proof that cigarettes are killers," added Donaghue, who quit five years ago.

He said the smoke in pubs had forced him to give up his favorite recreation, playing guitar and banjo in a traditional band. "My surgeon told me I was inhaling so much smoke in the pubs I might as well be smoking myself," he said.

O'Connor defiantly insisted cigarettes were blamed for too many ills.

"My dad died last year of lung cancer, and he only smoked once a year at Christmas," he said. "There's probably more cancer-causing chemicals in the air outside the front door."

That comment drew a disbelieving roar from a neighboring table - a group of workers from Dublin's overloaded Beaumont Hospital, where patients sometimes wait for hours, even days, on emergency trolleys for a bed.

"Practically everybody we see in the hospital is suffering from something to do with smoking," said hospital pharmacist John Byrne, 50, a lifelong nonsmoker. "I love the pub, and I'm really pleased that I'm going to enjoy clean air seven days a week - there's nothing worse than that smoke."

The ban includes a few notable exceptions. Rooms in hotels and bed-and-breakfasts, nursing homes, psychiatric hospitals and prison cells can't be covered by the ban because, legally, they are also private residences. That means prison guard O'Connor can't smoke at work but the convicts can.

"I want my smoke firsthand, not secondhand," he complained.

 

[Liesje]

sounds good. there's no good reason not to have the ban.

 

[BVS]

I thought from the title it was going to be pictures or stories of Irish BANDS smoking in bars.

I think the ban is crazy but oh well.

 

[Mullen-Girl]

I think the ban is a little much as well. I've said this before but I'm not a chain smoker or anything...I like to have a ciggy with some drinks and I did that all the time in Dublin and lots of people smoked. I mean it's good on one part that people that don't smoke would benefit but on the other hand...it would totally suck to have to go outside in the cold to smoke.

LOL I had to crack up at the guy smoking in the loo....people at my old office do that all the time

 

[Angela Harlem]

If health reasons are the main driving factor, then this is hypocritical.

 

[Mullen-Girl]

Yes Thank you! Like Drinking doesn't affect your health as well?

 

[oliveu2cm]

But- I know they were also talking about the health of the people who work in pubs. They're working, not drinking. So the ban is to protect their health, and I don't think that's hypocritical.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Its valid for sure. Smoking is a health risk. I wonder how many people up until this point have worked in a pub knowing they're either consientiously against smoking or have had concerns about the health risks. It's like working in an old fashioned paint factory and being worried about lead.

I'm personally all for banning smoking everywhere except for pubs. Even encouraging non smoking pubs if enough people really want that. They'll fill up and get their regulars too. Just leave a few places, and a bar is as good a place as any, where it is ok.

 

[Tasty Taste]

A smoke ban makes bars and pubs much, much more enjoyable to those who don't smoke. The smell of cigs after a night at a pub lingers in clothes. The smoke itself makes many (including myself) cough, and of course the health of those working there is a huge concern.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

from wnbc.com (nbc's new york affiliate)
Report: Smoking Ban Hasn't Hurt Business

POSTED: 7:42 am EST March 29, 2004
UPDATED: 11:08 am EST March 29, 2004

NEW YORK -- In the first 10 months after the city instituted a ban on smoking in public places, tax receipts from bars and restaurants jumped 8.7 percent, according to a report by several city agencies.

From April 2003 through January 2004, the city collected about $17.4 million in tax receipts from bars and restaurants, compared with $16 million in that period a year earlier, said the report, to be issued Monday by the Departments of Finance, Health & Mental Hygiene and Small Business Services and the Economic Development Corp.

The city said the findings indicate that concerns the smoking ban would choke restaurants and bars were unfounded.

"One year later, the data are clear," the report said. "The city's bar and restaurant industry is thriving and its workers are breathing cleaner, safer air."

Mayor Michael Bloomberg signed the smoking ban into law a year ago, stamping out smoking in most public places.

Some opponents of the ban say their establishments are suffering as a result of the no-smoking law. Owners of nearly two dozen hookah bars recently requested an exemption from the law, saying their businesses have been hurt by the ban. A hookah is a kind of pipe with a tube for drawing smoke through water in a bowl.

Currently, cigar bars, designated hotel and motel rooms, tobacco retailers and membership associations operated by unpaid volunteers are the only establishments exempt from the law.

Yet, the city said the indications for the industry were generally strong. The city's report found that the number of workers employed in bars and restaurants averaged 164,000 in 2003, the highest number in at least a decade. The industry added a seasonally adjusted 2,800 jobs between March and December 2003.

The number of bars and restaurants in the city remained unchanged between third-quarter 2002 and 2003, the most recent time for which statistics were available.

At the end of 2003 the city had 9,747 active liquor licenses outstanding, a net gain of 234 from 2002.

The city said that 97 percent of the 22,000 bars and restaurants inspected between April 2003 and February 2004 were in compliance with the ban, meaning that no patrons or workers were seen smoking, no ashtrays were present and "No Smoking" signs were properly displayed.

The city also found a six-fold reduction in air pollution levels in bars and restaurants where smoking was once permitted. And levels of continine, a nicotine byproduct, declined by 85 percent in samples collected from nonsmoking bar and restaurant employees, the report said.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

baisicly from those who i've talked to who are in the business... busy times for bars, i.e. happy hour, thursday, friday, saturday nights, are up significantly, while the bar down time, pre happy hour day time hours & weekday nights without major sporting events, are down significantly.

so baisicly bars are losing the "neighborhood crowds," but gaining in the "party crowds." and seeing as the happy hour and weekend night crowds drink more and stay longer, the added numbers in those crowds are negating the lost day-time neighborhood norm and cliff crowd.

 

[Sue DeNym]

Yes Thank you! Like Drinking doesn't affect your health as well?

You can go to a pub and not drink; most pubs have food and non-alcoholic drinks as well as liquor. But you can't help breathing in other people's cigarette smoke, as it permeates every square inch of air in the room.

I'm personally all for banning smoking everywhere except for pubs. Even encouraging non smoking pubs if enough people really want that. They'll fill up and get their regulars too. Just leave a few places, and a bar is as good a place as any, where it is ok.

The main reason I don't go to bars or nightclubs is that I cannot stand smoke. I understand people like to unwind with a drink and a cig, but we nonsmokers would like to unwind, too. I'd love to enjoy some live music or go dancing, without having to deal with smoke. I'd definitely support non-smoking nightclubs, if there were any in this culture-forsaken wasteland I live in.

 

[fah]

You can't smoke in bars on restaurants where I live but several establishments have outdoor seating areas where you can go out and have a smoke. I am a non smoker and let me tell you, it's great to go out to the bar and come home not smelling of smoke.

 

[iacrobat]

I think the pub culture will win out. I can't see this changing a social institution, they'll get over it.

I am a social smoker, but I think I prefer non-smoking bars. Here in Spain this type of legislation is a few years away, but it would be very nice.

May I also add, I don't think drinking affects your health on the same level as smoking does. No one complains about second hand alcohol. It's not a good comparison.

 

[Liesje]

May I also add, I don't think drinking affects your health on the same level as smoking does. No one complains about second hand alcohol. It's not a good comparison.

I just read somewhere that one drink a day will not compromise your health, but one cigarette a day will.

 

[STING2]

Infact, studies have shown that "light" drinking can be beneficial to your health.

 

[BVS]

But- I know they were also talking about the health of the people who work in pubs. They're working, not drinking. So the ban is to protect their health, and I don't think that's hypocritical.

Apparently you haven't been to a pub in Ireland many are drinking behind the bar.

I think the full on ban of smoking in every pub is just stupid. People bring up the second hand smoke issue, but as soon as you let that rule, then you'll have some that complain that people drinking in pubs leads to fights or drunk driving and then drinking will be banned too.

Everything we eat, drink, breathe will someday kill us, some faster than others, but you can't ban everything. You can create smoking sections, certain pubs can be smoke free, but the all out ban is just going to lead to more and more banning.

 

[iacrobat]

Apparently you haven't been to a pub in Ireland many are drinking behind the bar.

I think the full on ban of smoking in every pub is just stupid. People bring up the second hand smoke issue, but as soon as you let that rule, then you'll have some that complain that people drinking in pubs leads to fights or drunk driving and then drinking will be banned too.

Everything we eat, drink, breathe will someday kill us, some faster than others, but you can't ban everything. You can create smoking sections, certain pubs can be smoke free, but the all out ban is just going to lead to more and more banning.

I doubt it. In Toronto they have banned smoking and no one is talking about banning drinking. I haven't heard of any other city in the world where banning drinking has followed a ban on smoking.
Like I said, the pub is a social institution, drinking would never be banned in Ireland.

BTW, I worked in 3 pubs in Dublin and there was no drinking behind the bar in any of them.

 

[BVS]

I doubt it. In Toronto they have banned smoking and no one is talking about banning drinking. I haven't heard of any other city in the world where banning drinking has followed a ban on smoking.
Like I said, the pub is a social institution, drinking would never be banned in Ireland.

BTW, I worked in 3 pubs in Dublin and there was no drinking behind the bar in any of them.

I was trying to make a point, no it will not happen any time soon, but it opens it up for that type of argument.

Up until a few decades ago smoking was just part of life in Ireland a lot of places for that fact, in fact at one time moderate smoking was considered healthy(due to the notice of sped up metabolisms, etc.). 20 years ago, hell even 10 years ago no one thought a total smoking ban would be implemented in places such as L.A., New York, or Ireland. We did have a temporary ban of alcohol here in the states, so who knows.

I've only been to Ireland once and the pubs we hung out in the bartenders would share shots with us or drink a pint here and there, it wasn't constant, but it was there. There are bars that do it here in the states as well. Some frown upon it some don't.

 

[iacrobat]

Perhaps that debate could arise BonoVox, but I don't think the cigarette is as much of a cultural cornerstone as the pub is in Ireland.

Even if they banned it here in Barcelona, alcohol would never be banned. First because of economics, wine is huge here, and becausealcohol is deeply integrated into the culinary habits of the culture here whereas, smoking is not.

Anyhoo, I guess we'll see what happens down the road. I still look forward to the day it banned here.

 

[Naya]

The main reason I don't go to bars or nightclubs is that I cannot stand smoke. I understand people like to unwind with a drink and a cig, but we nonsmokers would like to unwind, too. I'd love to enjoy some live music or go dancing, without having to deal with smoke.

Well said.

I think its a good law because the smoke is not good for the people who work in bars.

I hope they ban smoking in pubs and clubs in Montreal. I hate reeking of cigarette smoke after a night out and having to wash all my clothes. Also my eyes get all red.

Us non smokers shouldnt have to endure and smell of someone elses disgusting habit.

Im sorry if I offend anyone but thats how I feel.

 

[Mullen-Girl]

Irish Lawmaker Loses Post for Smoking

DUBLIN, Ireland - Ireland's sweeping new ban on workplace smoking claimed its first casualty Thursday ? a high-profile lawmaker who lost his political post after lighting up in the parliamentary bar.


John Deasy, who was supposed to lead the Fine Gael party's official support for the ban, was punished after smoking at least three cigarettes Tuesday night in the bar beside the debating chamber.


Fellow lawmakers said Deasy had tried to open a locked emergency door into an outdoor courtyard. When the bar staff wouldn't let him out, he began smoking indoors in violation of the ban.


Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said he had no choice but to dismiss Deasy from his justice post in the shadow cabinet.


"Politicians must lead by example. No man, no woman, and no politician is above the law," Kenny said.


Kenny said Deasy may also face prosecution. The ban specifies a maximum $3,700 fine for anyone who smokes in an enclosed workplace.


Deasy, 35, declined to comment. He will remain a lawmaker representing Waterford in southeast Ireland.


The son of a former agriculture minister, Deasy had been tipped as a possible future Fine Gael leader. He frequently captured media attention with his stinging attacks on the government, left-wing opposition parties and even ? to the anger of Kenny ? his own right-leaning party.


Representatives of more than 10,000 pub owners in Ireland have claimed the ban will cost them business in a country where about 30 percent of adults smoke. So far, however, pubs have reported few problems in enforcement. Unlike the parliamentary bar, some have created new outdoor areas where drinkers can still smoke legally.

 

[Mullen-Girl]

 

[oktobergirl]

They'll get used to it.

When I moved to California from Missouri, it was so amazing to be able to go out places and not have to breathe smoke!

What's the big deal anyway? So you gotta smoke, go step outside and puff on it and come back in...

 

[nbcrusader]

When I moved to California from Missouri, it was so amazing to be able to go out places and not have to breathe smoke!

This is the first thing I notice when leaving California - the number of smokers out there....

 

[verte76]

We don't have any laws banning smoking in Alabama. We do have individual businesses that don't allow smoking, but I can't imagine the lamebrains in Montgomery to all of a sudden start giving a damn about the people they're supposed to represent.

 

[Dorian Gray]

I've worked in a bar for 3 years... the last two of which have been smoke-free thanks to provincial legislation.

When people were allowed to smoke, it was god-awful. I have nothing against smokers, but to have to work in that thick, moist, haze of stale smoke was really uncomfortable. It wasn't much fun to have the smell ingrained into the very fibres of my staff shirt and pants either, let alone my hair and skin.
Some might not think it bad, but consider the difference between spending a couple hours at a bar with your smokes, and spending an enitre working shift in such an environment.

Now, the bar is smoke free. I'm happy, the 70% who didn't smoke in the first place are happy too. The smokers, who were undersandably disgruntled for some time, still come to our bar; we haven't lost any business. They now go outside to the padio to enjoy their cigarette (and the padio's actually a bit of a social hot-spot now ).

Granted, Canadian culture is not Irish culture. I'm sure there will be problems there that we didn't have here. But people will adapt...

 

[bonoman]

Where to start...

Ok, smoking is legal right, like we are still alowwed to purchase smokes? Right? Ya, yup, we are. But we can only smoke where our government tells us to? Oh i get it. When i buy a business and want to run it MY way, beacuse it is my business, and the government steps in and tells me what to do within my business, that not freedom. The entire arguement that smoking kills and that this is for health reasons is bullshit, ask yourself if government were so concerned about health reason then why are smokes not banned in your country? Oh thats right, money, taxes. I pay 10$ CDN for a pack of smokes. $6.50 of that is federal tax! Did you know that? Maybe that the reason that smokes havent been banned, they want it both ways, they love our money but at the same time take away our freedoms.

What is next, not being allowed to smoke in your house? Our not being allowed to smoke in your car? There have been laws prohibiting smoking off public streets!

Doesnt anyone see the hipocracy of it all. All the non smokers here havent said a peep about getting rid of smokes all together, why, maybe because we are free to act as we like? But like to turn around and put smokers into a second class.

The people that complain they hate the bars because they are smokey and you smell like smoke, why are you still going to these bars? I dont understand it? Oh thats right, you'll accept the hardship of having to deal with something that discomforts you for plesure, well thats the only reason i can come up with. So now what you have done is put smokers into the same spot. When a smoker now goes to a bar they are put through the discomfort of having to go outside, into say -20C weather.

There has never been any comprimise brought forward. Like for example, has anyone here been into a casino, or a bar that has PROPER ventalation? If you have you will know the difference between a bar without and a bar with. Has anyone ever considered opening a bar for non-smokers? Obviously it is a great idea, since there are so many that hate smoking out there. Ya, i've seen places like that come and go, but i guess thats besides the point.


Oh, and to iacrobat, about your comment:

May I also add, I don't think drinking affects your health on the same level as smoking does. No one complains about second hand alcohol. It's not a good comparison.

No one complains about second hand alcohol? You've never been to a battered wives shelter, or seen drunk drivers, or was the victim of rape, or been the victim of child abuse. Not a good comparison is right, i'd take smoking anyday!

 

[hiphop]

i?m a smoker, i like a cig when hanging around with friends talking deep stuff and having a few beers. anyway, the irish solution does not disturb me. i understand that i shouldn?t harm the health of others. for this, i have to compromise.

anyway, i would like to see the same measures for driving. my health is harmed everyday because in the city where i live there are around 500,000 cars. i don?t own a car. how can anyone blame me for smoking, when they poisin my lungs every single day by driving?

start off with some zones where cars are allowed to go, and some more where they aren?t. we have a well functioning public transport system (in compare to some other cities, i admit - but that can be changed by investing more into public transport), plus i don?t live in the last love-nest in the country where you really need a car to go to the next supermarket 10 miles away.

if they forbid going with a car in town, build up big parking areas, and you?d pay 5000 $ for illegal private driving in town - which pollutes my lungs everyday and will eventually also cause lung cancer - then i am all for the smoking ban too.

if not, i?m not against the smoking ban anyway, but with all the other shit that pollutes me, i think that smoking ban is hypocritical.

 

[iacrobat]

Oh, and to iacrobat, about your comment:

May I also add, I don't think drinking affects your health on the same level as smoking does. No one complains about second hand alcohol. It's not a good comparison.

No one complains about second hand alcohol? You've never been to a battered wives shelter, or seen drunk drivers, or was the victim of rape, or been the victim of child abuse. Not a good comparison is right, i'd take smoking anyday!

I don't think it can be argued that wife abuse, rape or child abuse is directly related to alcohol in the same way lung cancer is directly related to second hand smoke.

I think there are larger issues at work in the examples you gave, it's not simply an issue of alcohol. Alcohol may be a catalyst, but removing it would not resolve the issues.

A bad comparison indeed.